{"id":5768,"date":"2026-08-30T09:56:59","date_gmt":"2026-08-30T13:56:59","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/blog-alexis.monville.com\/en\/?p=5768"},"modified":"2026-08-30T09:56:59","modified_gmt":"2026-08-30T13:56:59","slug":"from-hierarchy-to-wholeness-bringing-love-into-the-organization-with-xavier-costa","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/blog-alexis.monville.com\/en\/2026\/08\/30\/from-hierarchy-to-wholeness-bringing-love-into-the-organization-with-xavier-costa\/","title":{"rendered":"From Hierarchy to Wholeness: Bringing Love into the Organization with Xavier Costa"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><em>&#8220;For many years or centuries, we have been treated at the workplace in a relationship of father, child. I got a problem, I ask to my parent&#8230; The parent has to solve the problem. Now we are all responsible for that&#8230; it&#8217;s not the boss who is telling me what to do.&#8221;<\/em> \u2014 Xavier Costa<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In this episode of <em>Le Podcast on Emerging Leadership<\/em>, I am joined by Xavier Costa, a leader with over 40 years of experience who has dedicated his career to a radical proposition: buying traditional, command-and-control companies and transforming them into self-managing, purpose-driven &#8220;Teal&#8221; organizations.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Through his work with Full Circle Team and the impact fund Krisos, Xavier doesn&#8217;t just advise companies\u2014he acquires them. By transitioning businesses like traditional automotive die-casting plants in Spain into fully transparent, employee-empowered ecosystems, Xavier proves that human-centric leadership is not just a theory, but a highly effective operational model.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Here are the core insights from our conversation on dismantling fear-based hierarchies and building organizations rooted in trust.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><strong>Key Takeaways from This Episode<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><strong>The Evolution to Teal:<\/strong> Organizations have historically evolved from tribes (Red) to strict hierarchies (Amber), to innovation and profit-driven machines (Orange), to community-focused models (Green). The &#8220;Teal&#8221; paradigm combines the best of these, balancing a higher purpose, self-managed teams, and the holistic development of every individual.<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>Adult-to-Adult Relationships:<\/strong> Traditional workplaces often foster a parent-child dynamic where employees pass problems up the chain. Self-management requires shifting to an adult-to-adult dynamic, which demands deeper listening, sharing responsibility, and confronting hidden conflicts transparently.<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>The Power of Radical Transparency:<\/strong> When Krisos acquired the Alumipress factory, they opened the financial books to everyone. Teaching factory floor workers about profit margins transformed the culture. Within 12 months, employees were proactively fixing inefficiencies because they understood the business\u2014and shared in 30% of the year-end profits.<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>Redefining Compensation:<\/strong> Xavier introduces a compensation model that balances &#8220;masculine&#8221; productive energy (speed, technical knowledge) with &#8220;feminine&#8221; reproductive energy (teamwork, attitude, emotional intelligence). Salaries are transparent, capped at a 2.5x ratio between the lowest and highest paid, and based on clear, collectively agreed-upon criteria.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\"><a href=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/blog-alexis.monville.com\/en\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2026\/08\/Le-Podcast-Quote-Xavier-Costa.png?ssl=1\"><img data-recalc-dims=\"1\" loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"960\" height=\"540\" data-attachment-id=\"5770\" data-permalink=\"https:\/\/blog-alexis.monville.com\/en\/2026\/08\/30\/from-hierarchy-to-wholeness-bringing-love-into-the-organization-with-xavier-costa\/le-podcast-quote-xavier-costa\/\" data-orig-file=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/blog-alexis.monville.com\/en\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2026\/08\/Le-Podcast-Quote-Xavier-Costa.png?fit=960%2C540&amp;ssl=1\" data-orig-size=\"960,540\" data-comments-opened=\"1\" data-image-meta=\"{&quot;aperture&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;credit&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;camera&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;caption&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;created_timestamp&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;copyright&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;focal_length&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;iso&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;shutter_speed&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;title&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;orientation&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;alt&quot;:&quot;&quot;}\" data-image-title=\"Le Podcast &amp;#8211; Quote &amp;#8211; Xavier Costa\" data-image-description=\"\" data-image-caption=\"\" data-large-file=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/blog-alexis.monville.com\/en\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2026\/08\/Le-Podcast-Quote-Xavier-Costa.png?fit=960%2C540&amp;ssl=1\" src=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/blog-alexis.monville.com\/en\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2026\/08\/Le-Podcast-Quote-Xavier-Costa.png?resize=960%2C540&#038;ssl=1\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-5770\" srcset=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/blog-alexis.monville.com\/en\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2026\/08\/Le-Podcast-Quote-Xavier-Costa.png?w=960&amp;ssl=1 960w, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/blog-alexis.monville.com\/en\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2026\/08\/Le-Podcast-Quote-Xavier-Costa.png?resize=300%2C169&amp;ssl=1 300w, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/blog-alexis.monville.com\/en\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2026\/08\/Le-Podcast-Quote-Xavier-Costa.png?resize=768%2C432&amp;ssl=1 768w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 960px) 100vw, 960px\" \/><\/a><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><strong>The Leader as a Lighthouse<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">One of the most striking moments of the interview was Xavier\u2019s reflection on the true role of leadership during an organizational transformation. When a company removes management in favor of elected representatives and steering committees, what happens to the former leaders?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">According to Xavier, an organization&#8217;s evolution is ultimately limited by the consciousness of its leadership. When crises hit, the easiest path is to regress to old, autocratic habits. To prevent this, a leader must park their ego. They are no longer the &#8220;Superman&#8221; solving every problem; instead, they become a lighthouse providing direction. Their job is to hold space for conflict, facilitate growth, and remain steady in the hurricane.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Ultimately, as Xavier beautifully notes at the end of our conversation, the goal is to bring <em>love<\/em> into the organization\u2014an energy capable of deep listening, clear communication, and unwavering confidence in the potential of the people.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><strong>Listen to the Full Conversation<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Tune in to hear the full story of how Xavier Costa is proving that trust, transparency, and shared ownership can revitalize even the most traditional industries.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<iframe loading=\"lazy\" src=\"https:\/\/creators.spotify.com\/pod\/profile\/emerging-leadership\/embed\/episodes\/From-Hierarchy-to-Wholeness-Bringing-Love-into-the-Organization-with-Xavier-Costa-e3o35v5\/a-acrpv93\" height=\"102px\" width=\"400px\" frameborder=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\"><\/iframe>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><em>Available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Resources Mentioned:<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><strong><a href=\"https:\/\/krisos.eu\/\">Krisos<\/a>:<\/strong> An impact fund dedicated to buying and transforming companies into self-management models.<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.fullcircleteam.es\/\">Full Circle Team<\/a>:<\/strong> Xavier&#8217;s consultancy supporting Teal transformations.<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>Frederic Laloux:<\/strong> Author of <em><a href=\"https:\/\/www.reinventingorganizations.com\/\">Reinventing Organizations<\/a><\/em>, which popularized the color-coded paradigms of organizational evolution.<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong><a href=\"https:\/\/nerbyk2k.com\/es\/\">K2K<\/a><\/strong>: A Basque consultancy company supporting transformations to self-management.<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>Steward Ownership:<\/strong> Alternative corporate ownership models (like <a href=\"https:\/\/bosch-stiftung.de\/index.php\/en\/foundation\/robert-bosch\">Bosch<\/a>) designed to protect a company&#8217;s purpose over time.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Transcript:<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Alexis:<\/strong> This is the podcast on emerging leadership. I&#8217;m your host, Alexis Monville. Today, I&#8217;m joined by Xavier Costa, co-founder of Krisos and co-founder of Full Circle Team. He brings hands-on experience in transforming traditional companies into self-managing, purpose-driven [00:01:00] organizations<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Hey, Xavier. How do you introduce yourself to someone you just met?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Xavier Costa:<\/strong> I, am, a person that has been leading companies for the past 40 i-in different environments. And I had my own company as well, and I&#8217;ve been evolving, Always having a very intuitive connection. So I would say when I look back that everything I did, it was by intuition. And and, and I&#8217;m feeling really happy about what I&#8217;m doing now. Yeah. Because it is collecting all the learnings I had all of my life and bringing them to the, society<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Alexis:<\/strong> Okay. Tell us a little bit about what you are doing [00:02:00] now<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Xavier Costa:<\/strong> Am part of a small company called Full Circle Team, is a consultant company that we created three years ago. Fully dedicated to transform organizations into a teal paradigm. And at the same&#8211; and we are doing this mainly in Spain, although we are having some collaborations in South America, in North America. And as well, I am a found&#8211; co-founder of Krisos. And Krisos is a movement that we created about five years ago together with my two colleagues from K2K the, the Basque consultant company founded by Koldo Saratxaga and our friends from Corporate Rebels. So we created this fund. It&#8217;s an impact fund that is buying company and transforming them into the [00:03:00] self-management teal paradigm. And we did that because after several years of transforming as consultants the companies, we did realize that once we were leaving and maybe the founders of the company were going retreat et cetera, the company was being sold and when&#8211; was going back. So we said, &#8220;No, we have to prove that we can buy companies, transform them into this paradigm, make them sustainable along the time.&#8221; And if possible, we want that these companies become employee-ownership or cooperatives so that the, the employees are the owners of the company. Yeah<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Alexis:<\/strong> Okay, so we have a lot to unpack here. But first of all, you said you will transition company from [00:04:00] traditional organization to teal organization, to teal structures. What does it mean exactly?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Xavier Costa:<\/strong> That question is deep, eh? You have time for it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Alexis:<\/strong> Yeah<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Xavier Costa:<\/strong> but basically the idea is that we have been leading companies for the past, uuuh, centuries in a way, uhhh, that needed to evolve, yeah? And in every different stage of e-evolution, as Frederic Laloux was naming and setting in colors, yeah, there has been a transition, yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">From the red to the amber, there was a transition. Then something which was like a, small tribe with one very powerful leader, yeah to a bigger organization with a [00:05:00] structure, with processes, et cetera. from that point, was the Industrial Revolution, and that has been created much more freedom for people to innovate, to create, to invent new things. And this was the, orange level, yeah, where innovation looking for individual success and setting goals, et cetera, that, that has been driving our companies for the last or for the past years, yeah? And the sixties, seventies, there was this movement of cooperatives.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Yeah. It was like I call it hippie m-movement if you want, eh? So that the important is the, journey and not the and we care [00:06:00] about ourselves. So it was a new level where people were f&#8211; the first one, yeah. And that was a big jump in the, i-in the evolution and if we take all of these levels together, the good things of each level, then there is the junction or the, of the teal consciousness level, yeah. These companies then they have a kind of leadership, boundaries. They have some structure, yeah. There is freedom, there is innovation, there is caring about the people, yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Alexis:<\/strong> Mhm<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Xavier Costa:<\/strong> and at the end, the good things of all of these levels is what has created the teal consciousness level, as we would say.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Here we talk about, A bigger purpose, not only focused on maximizing profitability, but<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">there is&#8211; [00:07:00] we expect a bigger purpose of every company. There is as well self-managed teams. There is not a rigid hierarchy, teams that manage themselves and they are connected. So there are processes, yeah and, ways how these teams are being connected, communicate themselves, how decisions are being taken, etc. There are boundaries as well, yeah. So we all agree somehow what is allowed in our company or not. Let&#8217;s say things, yeah. So but we need really to have some boundaries to set up our freedom, yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So starting from legal side to human behavior, how we relate. We well having [00:08:00] this of individual innovation, individual ambition to progress, etc.,<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">within the team, yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Alexis:<\/strong> Mhm<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Xavier Costa:<\/strong> we have as well the caring. So we say people are first, and this would be the third leg of the teal organizations, which w-would be the wholeness, the plenitude, yeah, the wholeness of the people, yeah. So in a teal organizations, we work a lot as well on the development and in, in the development of everyone and its own potential.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">We do believe truly in the potential of the people, and we trust everybody, so these three big legs that make these kind of or-organizations something which is, good for the people, yeah. Because people can be themselves authentically [00:09:00] good for the society, good for the planet somehow, yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Because if we have a h-higher or a bigger purpose this purpose will not be we destroy the planet. Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Alexis:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Xavier Costa:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Alexis:<\/strong> So higher purpose good for the people. Self-management is a big part of that and and wellness. So individual self-development or development and true belief that in, basically in human potential, in everyone&#8217;s human potential, in everyone&#8217;s potential<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Xavier Costa:<\/strong> But i-in, in this environment people would think&#8211; and I have a lot of people that are telling me but this is&#8211; these kind of cooperatives that everybody has general meetings and all the decisions are taken in an assembly.&#8221; no, this is a misunderstanding about it. We have, the, the internal processes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Teams can [00:10:00] take their decisions, individuals can propose, take their decisions, et cetera. It&#8217;s not about And, this is one of the misunderstandings, eh, which would be the green level, if you want it, eh? That everything has to be decided all together. No, it&#8217;s not that, yeah<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Alexis:<\/strong> Yeah. And it&#8217;s, a, very important one because I believe as soon as you start to elaborate on those different aspects misunderstanding will come. So what are the, the biggest psychological or cultural barrier organizations face when letting go of traditional hierarchy?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Xavier Costa:<\/strong> Found a lot of different things, eh? One is we are free, we can do whatever we want. And therefore I say, no, have [00:11:00] boundaries. Yeah? So in these boundaries is where we move. Yeah? But as well, with the freedom, we got the responsibility because this is our project. We are here in this company to develop the comp- company foundation, whatever, eh or public organization, et cetera.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">We are working here and we have a common purpose. We have a common goal. Yeah? So we are here to&#8211; and working here to this organization another level, which is contributing to this purpose. Yeah? So then I have my responsibility. It&#8217;s not that I can do whatever I want and I don&#8217;t know. I, do not fulfill my commitments, and I&#8217;m sorry.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">No. This is one of, this, Another psychological difficulty is that [00:12:00] we are all responsible. We are<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">all responsible. And for many years or centuries, we have been treated at the workplace in a, a relationship of father, child.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Yeah? I got a problem, I ask to my father to my parent. Yeah? And the parent, was the, the manager, the middle manager, the higher manager, the, the<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">yeah? Has to solve the problem, eh, somehouse. Somehow. Now we are all responsible for that. So we have to take and assume our responsibilities. There is that will solve our problems. Yeah? We have. So there is always somebody that knows better, has a good solution. Okay he brings it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Yeah? But it&#8217;s not the boss who is telling me what to do. Huh? And, this [00:13:00] of the res- responsibility, in some cases is creating several psychological difficulties. Yeah? And as well for the former managers, because the former managers have been working all of our life in developing ourself, and we have been trained to lead, to manage.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Eh? There were this business management, master in business administration or business management, et cetera. All of a sudden, what is my job? I don&#8217;t know what to do. How do I manage? How do &#8230; So there is as well an intense work that we have to do with individual with with people And to find out their position because people are here because they know a lot of things depending on the [00:14:00] business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">They know perfectly the market. They know technically perfectly, so they can bring it, yeah, without having to be or to put in the backpack all the weight of the responsibility of everything. Yeah. So then, we&#8211; they feel or we believe they feel much free, in order to bring it the company, into the organization.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Yeah. but this is&#8211; this requires a transition and it&#8217;s, like we need to release, let go a lot of things, yeah, and then embrace a new way of being, yeah, somehow. There, there are other things in a adult parent-child relationship. The way we speak the way we relate the, [00:15:00] the&#8230; So it i-it is&#8211; is not a, a deep listening. Yeah. It is just obeying or keep mandating. Yeah. So when you are in a adult-adult, we need to learn or relearn how to listen, to go deeper into the, listening levels and understand what&#8217;s going on below the&#8211; under the table, I say. Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So kind of things that are not being said but are still there. Yeah. So there is a learning process as well on, on that side. Yeah. So-<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Alexis:<\/strong> Yeah. So yeah, moving from those vertical relationships of parents to a child in a way to adult horizontal relationships. And it&#8217;s there&#8217;s a transition, there&#8217;s some learning for people who were in both positions basically. Because you were you were either in the below [00:16:00] or above people in an organization, and you need to learn how to relate to peers in a way<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Xavier Costa:<\/strong> Yes. And and once you start relating with peers, are things that have never been said. So you start working in teams, but there were a lot of conflicts or subjects that were hidden, that were under the carpet, yeah? And that was between you and the boss. But with the others, it k- it wasn&#8217;t being said, so all of a sudden, we are now here as a team transparently. we need to talk about everything, yeah? And there is a lot of work at the beginning to put the conflicts on the table. To put constantly, yeah? So here I smell or I sense that there is something that is not being said, and there is fear. fear to say that, huh? [00:17:00] And we put it on the table, and then holding it, opening the discussion, listening to the people, et cetera. Otherwise, these relationships, these teams are still working in a, scenic way. Yeah? And I, may say yes, but I&#8217;m doing this, yeah? So, we need to work and relearn how we have our relationships within the teams.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Yeah, so you, get me, huh?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Alexis:<\/strong> Yeah. And i-if we take if we take a concrete examples of when, Krysos buys a company, what happens?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Xavier Costa:<\/strong> For instance, now I am here at Alumipress. So we bought the first Alumipress the company in one year ago, May 2025. And [00:18:00] May two thou- 2026, we bought a second company doing the same aluminum die casting which was in bankruptcy. But the factory new, fantastic, et cetera. And the first one we bought, it was really old factory, et cetera, yeah. So we are now merging both companies, yeah. Instead of being 40, now we are f- 80 people, different cultures. happened? So when we bought the f- the first one, one year ago, we, created a new structure of teams. Yeah? And then we started we did open all the numbers. So transparency, so transparent. Yeah? And so monthly, we explained the numbers of the company. That was the first surprise because people were [00:19:00] believing, &#8220;Oh, here we are being paid so bad, but they are making a lot of money.&#8221; And so once you see the numbers, you see the margin, and we start talking about margin, and people are telling me, &#8220;Yeah, but somebody who&#8217;s working in a, in the workshop in front of a machine, doesn&#8217;t know anything about margin.&#8221; Maybe the first day. after 12 months, they know a lot about the margin, and they bring a lot of solutions because they know. They start looking at the margin of the products we are manufacturing and saying, &#8220;We have to change the process because here we are losing money.&#8221; And so all of a sudden, with this transparency, people start to get responsible of the output.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Yeah? Because we didn&#8217;t say that, but at the end of the year, we share 30% of the profit with all the, employees. Yeah?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So then [00:20:00] we have a common goal, we have a common reward, and then we are all responsible for it. teams, when they were created, it&#8217;s not automatic that I have this magic. It&#8217;s like, &#8220;Yeah, now it&#8217;s self-managed and everything works.&#8221; No, because they were former middle managers. In Spain we call encargados. Yeah which of a sudden we have to change the dynamics. Yeah? And say, &#8220;No.&#8221; being with the teams in their meetings, in their daily meetings, in the conversations, et cetera we are there to hold, a new dynamic. Not to say what to do, but to hold it. Yeah? And to, to say wait.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Listen, what is his, His face, he&#8217;s trying to say something, but he&#8217;s not saying it. So bring it on the table. Yeah. So one year, the&#8211; all the [00:21:00] dyna&#8211; people feel the trust because it&#8217;s not about anymore about you have to do that because I&#8217;m telling it to you. they are listening to me. Oh, okay. So there is trust.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Yeah. And then dynamic changed completely and the, the, the, the climate changed. Yeah. so this is some of the first things w-w-we did. we created what we call steering committee reps from every single team. So then the decisions, the strategic decisions, et cetera, are being taken there. Yeah. But, with the consent of every single team being represented by somebody. Yeah. So&#8211; And this information then is brought back to the teams. Yeah. So there is already a change of dynamics. It&#8217;s not perfect at the beginning but there is [00:22:00] a big evolution. And one year later I listened to them and there were a, a business school called IESE that has been following our case, and they came one year later, they did interviews to the people, and they said, &#8220;It&#8217;s amazing. amazing.&#8221; But I&#8217;m talking about very simple things that has to do with the dignity of the people as well, eh? So being tre-treated as human, only as machines or stupid somebody that is creating chaos. No And all of a sudden there was this dignity. There&#8217;s w&#8211; there was this, sense of this is our project.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This is really our project and we are learning, we are developing, et cetera. Of course, the numbers help it, yeah, because all of a sudden when you review the margins and the people start viewing th-the processes, changing them, the results are coming slightly, eh, but [00:23:00] they are coming. Yeah, there is as well, And now with the second company we bought, they were coming from a very autocratic leadership. There was one boss<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">and the rest, they were treated as Yeah? And, the middle managers, they were the teams the same way as they were being treated. Yeah? So at&#8211; when we came here, there was fear. There was&#8211; So we did a, a general meeting before buying. We do always a vote, a general meeting with all the people. We explain who we are, what we do, and we ask them to vote for it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Yeah? So<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Alexis:<\/strong> Mhm<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Xavier Costa:<\/strong> in this general meeting, we already did realize that there was, like, fear and it&#8217;s like a-an animal, a dog that has been mistreated, that you touch or you try to touch him, and you Yeah? Okay. [00:24:00] So here the culture is different. is no trust. People are defending themselves, so we have to do it slowly.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And then this is about our leadership. This is the way approaching the people. what&#8211; when we did the diagnose, one sentence was very clear to us: They need to be listened. being listened changed completely the way. And then the two cultures started to merge. Yeah? And ones were saying, &#8220;Oh, these ones are always pl-protesting,&#8221; and yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But three months later, because the numbers of the company, the second company we c- we acquired, they were very bad, so everybody needed to, &#8220;Okay let&#8217;s, improve it.&#8221; Yeah? And all of a sudden, both teams started to work together, and now last July it was incredible. The result was already positive. Yeah? But it [00:25:00] is about listening, about being there, about okay and again, Yeah? So I&#8217;m sorry it took too long, but it<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Alexis:<\/strong> It&#8217;s, not too long. It&#8217;s very important. I&#8217;m curious about one thing. So when you change the structure, there&#8217;s no manager anymore because it&#8217;s self-managing teams. But for example, the representatives of the teams in the steering committees, are they the former managers or not at all?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Xavier Costa:<\/strong> It might be, but they are elected by their team. So in some cases I&#8217;m trying to remember. Yeah, in some cases, they were the former manager. In other cases, no, there was another one. No problem. And, as we create So I, talked about the steering committee, but there is a commitment committee which is more related. So the first [00:26:00] one I said is strategic, et cetera. It has to do with the thinking, yeah, more. The second the, commitment committee, as we call, it has to do with doing. It&#8217;s the daily, work, the weekly work, yeah? New orders, delivery times, et cetera. And we have created a third one, which is caring, has to do with k- culture with people, but I call it caring, yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But every company can have a different name. here you got already every team has three different representatives, with different characteristics, features. Yeah, someone is more visionary or strategic thinking, the other one is more detail and pr- and the other one is caring about the people. then once we start working, say, okay, we need to do something about [00:27:00] how do we call improvement mejoras continuous improvement, yeah. We create another team, and then there are volunteers coming from different teams there. So again, you got other people that are acting as representatives of their team i- in in another commission or work team, yeah? So you are creating and giving and participation to the people, it&#8217;s n- the power is distributed. Slowly being distributed by many, people. Of course, there will be always people who say, &#8220;I don&#8217;t want.&#8221; Okay, matter. I can understand it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Maybe next year or within two years, you will say, &#8220;Oh, this is my It&#8217;s where I want to participate,&#8221; et cetera. Yeah, so<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Alexis:<\/strong> Yeah. Yeah, so [00:28:00] the&#8211; during the transition period, there are some people who are&#8211; who don&#8217;t want to, join that type of organization and who, prefer to leave, and there are some people who change roles. How do you handle the, the, the compensation differences, the salaries? Because usually there&#8217;s quite huge differences between management and other workers, especially in the industry<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Xavier Costa:<\/strong> Coming so I&#8217;ve been working a few years with K2K, yeah, with the Basque K2K Erner. And there we had like a salary balance. So that was something that we used to do very early in every company. Yeah. So define the criterias, yeah, and then evaluating everybody and setting the salary level of every person.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Yeah. And we were saying [00:29:00] we want that between the ten percent of the lowest salaries and the ten percent of the highest salaries, difference Cannot be higher than two point five, two point six times. Yeah? So okay. And we were saying as well, nobody will have his salary lowered. Yeah? So we give psy-psychological security as well here. Yeah. And then we do this defin-definition of criterias. Yeah. First of all we work with a team with people from&#8211; volunteers from all over the, the organization, and we create these different criterias. Then we put weight of each criteria in the evaluation. Yeah. And the groups, the salary [00:30:00] groups.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Yeah. There, there could be&#8211; There are organization that they have only one group, and it is aligned like this. And there are other organizations, larger ones, that maybe you need a group of people in the workshop and people in, I don&#8217;t know, in the research or whatever, yeah. There, there are very clear open criteria, yeah, need to be voted in general meeting.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This is not voted in the steering committee. It&#8217;s in the general meeting by everybody. So explained and so everybody knows it. define each salary the salary levels are known by everybody. Transparent. Yeah. then we explain the criterias. Yeah. So at a certain moment, the evaluation has been done and I am at that level, [00:31:00] I know should I do to go to this level. Yeah. So because in my evaluation, in my group I don&#8217;t know, being a good teammate is very well evaluated, and I am not a good teammate. So if I am developing myself in being a better teammate, so probably I would get there. Yeah. The and that was a big change from my time at K2K. The criteria, we balance them between the productive And what I call the reproductive. So the masculine energy and the feminine energy, yeah? So there are criteria that have to do with my attitudes, do I behave? How do I treat the people? My confidence, et cetera. And the other ones who has to do with fast [00:32:00] work, for instance, yeah. That&#8217;s not a, a criteria, but it is yeah. Or the, the university title that I have, yeah, my knowledge. Yeah. So this&#8211; and there is this balance. I&#8217;m always saying that in a teal level, we are always in a balance. a balance between, masculine energy, feminine energy, yeah. Chaos, order, logic, intuition, rational. Yeah. And it&#8217;s like a dancing. We are always dancing within this but trying to be in at the end centered. Yeah. And that, that&#8217;s one of the most difficult parts of b- trying to go into the teal level. Because in [00:33:00] a die casting automotive industry like here everything would go quickly into the rational, productive, et cetera.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">No, So let&#8217;s talk as well about good morning, how are you today? How do you feel? Yeah. This kind of things, yeah. So it&#8217;s&#8211; And it&#8217;s a dance. It&#8217;s nothing static. we need to, be able to dance within it<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Alexis:<\/strong> So you, mentioned K2K and you have your experience now with Krisos and Full Circle team. Is there s-something special in Spain that makes it possible?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Xavier Costa:<\/strong> It&#8217;s a good question. And it came to me m- many times. So there are&#8211; first thing, there is something which has to do with the Spanish culture or the [00:34:00] Spanish political, but not political from today, yeah, political from centuries the Basque Country and Catalonia were in the bound- boundaries the power.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Yeah. The power was in the center, and then you had these two areas which were oriented to the sea, to the Atlantic or to the Mediterranean. Yeah. And there was, for instance, in Catalonia, there has been&#8211; the, the, Industrial Revolution in Spain came through Catalonia. Yeah. And this has created this culture of creating businesses and, small businesses, family businesses being innovative, et cetera.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Be&#8211; In the Basque Country and in Catalonia a lot. So this [00:35:00] capacity, capacity, et cetera, has been existing there. And there was as well at the beginning at the end of the nineteenth century, at be-beginning of the twentieth century, there was this movement of cooperatives. Yeah. So that there was as well a- and the anarchists. Yeah. So there was as well this movement that made or created a lot of cooperatives owned by the employees, by the&#8211; And was as well creating this philosophy of we work together as teams, as a cooperative, a community collective. and it is being said when, when when I&#8217;m reading some researches that this is one of the causes. But the other one is that we are in the boundaries. In the [00:36:00] boundaries, is where this kind of progressive yeah, creative movements have been taking place<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Alexis:<\/strong> Okay. Yeah I, like that it gives me the willingness to investigate a little bit more that area. That&#8217;s that&#8217;s very interesting. You alluded to that earlier. What can prevent organizations who are going through that transition to teal structure, what could prevent them to s- from sliding back into more traditional hierarchies?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Because you alluded that sometimes it f- it did not last forever[00:37:00]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Xavier Costa:<\/strong> Oof, that&#8217;s a good question, eh? So let me start from the very&#8211; We always say that the of the consciousness of an or-organization the limit of the leader of the organization.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Alexis:<\/strong> Okay<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Xavier Costa:<\/strong> Yeah? That&#8217;s why I am always saying to people who approach us, &#8220;I want to lead my&#8211; or transform my organization,&#8221; and as consultants we are doing it le&#8211; teal self-management, et cetera. We always say, &#8220;Yes. let&#8217;s go. will spend several months only with you.&#8221; Because we need to raise the consciousness level of the, leaders of the companies. If possible, of the owners, yeah? Because at the end in a, crisis moment, the easiest is to go back to the former [00:38:00] system, which is what we know, yeah, and what we lear-learned.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Yeah. So this is the first thing. The leadership of the organization will limit our e&#8211; evolution capacity. And then that this company has evolved, and it was owned by Krisos fantastic, et cetera. Then we sell it to private equity, which purpose is maximize profit. what&#8217;s gonna happen? No, I&#8217;m gonna put here cost because this is what we have learned. It&#8217;s not because these people are not I don&#8217;t know, human. This is what we learn. Yeah. So then it goes back. So what&#8211; To answer your question, what would prevent to go back, first of all, is to have in the company or [00:39:00] owners in that company that believe in it and that work to prevent it. Yeah. There is a movement that maybe you know called steward ownership. And in the Netherlands, in Germany, they are very strong. Which is&#8211; we have very old examples like Bosch. Bosch is a fo-foundation, eh, and they created the foundation in order to prevent that this was happening somehow.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Huh? I don&#8217;t know what is this in their case, but yeah. It is have to create something that prevents if there is a change in the leadership of the organization, this goes back.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Alexis:<\/strong> Yeah<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Ex-excellent. I believe that gives us something of a interesting to look into. I will put more references [00:40:00] in the, companion blog post because there&#8217;s a, a lot to, to read that you mentioned. Tell me, Xavier, what is one question I should have asked you that I did not?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Xavier Costa:<\/strong> It would be about about the leader, about the leadership Yeah, because to follow a manual, to follow a, a methodology, it&#8217;s easy. It&#8217;s very easy. And when they ask me to change the structure of the company, it&#8217;s very easy. We create these teams. We have this steering committee. Do the voting.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">We have the reps. Okay. Yes, fantastic. And what about the people? What happens if there is a conflict? How do you handle the conflict? How do you handle the people that we always will have because this is our society [00:41:00] that they are against the, change,<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Alexis:<\/strong> Mhm<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Xavier Costa:<\/strong> the easiest way is we fire them. No. I always say, &#8220;If we fire them, don&#8217;t worry, these boys will come again through another person.&#8221; So this capacity of holding, of listening, of giving the responsibility to the, people, but not that, it&#8217;s your problem. No, Holding it, facilitating it. This is the, leadership we need. well we were talking about a common purpose. The leader, like a lighthouse, needs to be able to say, &#8220;Hey, we are going that direction. This is the north.&#8221; Yeah? So at the same time, we have to be able to be with the people, listening, being within the conflicts, et cetera.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So it is a role [00:42:00] maybe not being the most expert in die casting. I don&#8217;t know anything about die casting. Being there, listening, holding when there is a crisis saying, &#8220;Okay, I am in the middle of the hurricane, and we are all together. We will make it possible trusting in the future.&#8221;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Trust is fundamental as if I am trusting and I am confident in the, organization, in the&#8211; fully in the people people follows. People gets this confidence, and then they are as well acting with trust. Yeah? So it is a change in the way we lead the organizations, yeah? And I am always saying ego, hey, this Xavi that says &#8220;Hey, you are wonderful Superman.&#8221;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">No, that&#8217;s&#8211; is parked. Is [00:43:00] parked, eh? And I am at the of something bigger, I am repeating very often now that what we do at the end is to bring love into the organizations. Yeah? And with the, the word love, what is a kind of energy, is able to listen, able to communicate, to bring clarity, to accept that the things are not going properly, but being confident in the future.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Yeah? So is something that&#8230; And being with the people. Yeah? So this is something that we have to, bring into the organizations<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Alexis:<\/strong> This is beautiful. That&#8217;s a s-lovely way to end. We will end on that note bringing love to the organization. I love it. And thank you very much, Xavier, for having joined the podcast today<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Xavier Costa:<\/strong> Thank you for inviting me<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u200b<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Alexis:<\/strong> [00:44:00] Thank you for listening to this episode of Le Podcast on Emerging Leadership. You can find more references in the companion blog post at alexis.monville.com. See you later \u200b<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>&#8220;For many years or centuries, we have been treated at the workplace in a relationship of father, child. I got a problem, I ask to my parent&#8230; The parent has to solve the problem. Now we are all responsible for that&#8230; it&#8217;s not the boss who is telling me what to do.&#8221; \u2014 Xavier Costa [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":5769,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"advanced_seo_description":"","jetpack_seo_html_title":"","jetpack_seo_noindex":false,"jetpack_seo_schema_type":"","_jetpack_newsletter_access":"","_jetpack_dont_email_post_to_subs":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_tier_id":0,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paywalled_content":false,"_jetpack_feature_clip_id":0,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":"","jetpack_post_was_ever_published":false},"categories":[811,1012],"tags":[788,1013,1014],"class_list":["post-5768","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-podcast","category-le-podcast-s06","tag-leadership","tag-self-organization","tag-teal"],"jetpack_shortlink":"https:\/\/wp.me\/paNjQG-1v2","jetpack-related-posts":[{"id":4066,"url":"https:\/\/blog-alexis.monville.com\/en\/2023\/01\/05\/this-is-season-three-of-le-podcast\/","url_meta":{"origin":5768,"position":0},"title":"This is Season Three of Le Podcast!","author":"Alexis","date":"January 5, 2023","format":false,"excerpt":"Season 3 of Le Podcast on Emerging Leadership features interviews with experts on leadership and related topics. In the first episode, Jared Kleinert, the CEO, and co-founder of Offsite and the founder of Meeting of the Minds, discusses the importance of meeting in person in the future of work, the\u2026","rel":"","context":"In &quot;General&quot;","block_context":{"text":"General","link":"https:\/\/blog-alexis.monville.com\/en\/category\/all\/"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/blog-alexis.monville.com\/en\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2021\/01\/Le-Podcast-on-Emerging-Leadership-Square-e1611488942222.png?fit=400%2C400&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200","width":350,"height":200},"classes":[]},{"id":3290,"url":"https:\/\/blog-alexis.monville.com\/en\/2020\/03\/21\/psychological-safety\/","url_meta":{"origin":5768,"position":1},"title":"Psychological Safety: Creating Teams Where People Can Speak Up","author":"Alexis","date":"March 21, 2020","format":false,"excerpt":"Psychological safety is a term coined by Amy Edmondson, author of The Fearless Organization. At its core, psychological safety describes an environment where people feel safe to speak up, ask for help, take risks, and admit mistakes without fear of being blamed or rejected. 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In this episode of Le Podcast on Emerging Leadership, I had the pleasure of\u2026","rel":"","context":"In &quot;Le Podcast&quot;","block_context":{"text":"Le Podcast","link":"https:\/\/blog-alexis.monville.com\/en\/category\/podcast\/"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/blog-alexis.monville.com\/en\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2020\/04\/Le-Podcast-Square-Bart.png?fit=400%2C400&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200","width":350,"height":200},"classes":[]},{"id":2891,"url":"https:\/\/blog-alexis.monville.com\/en\/2019\/06\/05\/how-to-form-a-team\/","url_meta":{"origin":5768,"position":4},"title":"How to Form a Cross-Functional Team That Actually Works","author":"Alexis","date":"June 5, 2019","format":false,"excerpt":"Today I had the chance to sit with Valentin Yonchev and Matt Takane from the Red Hat Open Innovation Labs. Wanting to benefit from their vast experience of building cross-functional teams, I asked them a question: How to form a team?","rel":"","context":"In &quot;Le Podcast&quot;","block_context":{"text":"Le Podcast","link":"https:\/\/blog-alexis.monville.com\/en\/category\/podcast\/"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/blog-alexis.monville.com\/en\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2019\/06\/Le-Podcast-Team.png?fit=400%2C400&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200","width":350,"height":200},"classes":[]},{"id":1431,"url":"https:\/\/blog-alexis.monville.com\/en\/2012\/04\/30\/hacker-a-vendre\/","url_meta":{"origin":5768,"position":5},"title":"Hacker \u00e0 vendre&#8230;","author":"Alexis","date":"April 30, 2012","format":false,"excerpt":"Pas si facile d'acheter un hacker... C'est pourtant ce que vous propose Hacker-Trade.com... Enfin, ce que propose Hacker-Trade aux clients dont le but \u00e0 un sens (traduction approximative du tr\u00e8s efficace no-nonsense clients). Cela permettra \u00e0 certains hackers de travailler en voyageant, ou de voyager en travaillant... 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