Many managers hesitate to talk about careers with their team members.

Two objections come up again and again:

• “People don’t really know what they want. Why would I open that conversation?”
• “If I help them think about their long-term future, won’t I just help them leave?”

In this episode of Le Podcast on Emerging Leadership, I discussed these questions with Russ Laraway — former leader at Google and Twitter, co-founder and former COO of Candor Inc., and author of When They Win, You Win.

What emerged from our conversation is both simple and counterintuitive:
career conversations, when done seriously, increase commitment rather than reduce it.

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People usually know more than we think

One of the most persistent myths in management is that people have no idea what they want to become.

Russ’s experience — working with thousands of leaders and teams — shows the opposite. Most people do have a sense of direction. What they often lack is a safe space and a skilled manager to help articulate it.

When managers invest time and attention in these conversations, people don’t suddenly become disloyal. They become clearer.

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Retention at all costs is a losing strategy

Russ shared a strong conviction, shaped by both experience and data:
retention at all costs puts the company first — not the human.

He tells stories of sitting down with team members to evaluate external offers together. Sometimes the right decision is to stay. Sometimes it is to leave. What matters is that the decision is aligned with the person’s long-term vision.

Ironically, managers who behave this way tend to retain people longer. Trust grows when people feel their manager is genuinely invested in their future — not just their output.

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Career conversations reduce the “grass is greener” effect

Many people leave not because their current role is bad, but because they believe the next one will magically be better.

Career conversations change that dynamic.

By working with a long-term vision and a concrete career action plan, managers can often make small but meaningful adjustments in the current role: exposure to budgeting, collaboration with another function, or responsibilities aligned with future aspirations.

Suddenly, the present becomes a place to grow — not something to escape.

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Leadership behaviors can be measured — and that matters

One of the most powerful aspects of Russ’s work comes from his time at Candor Inc. and later at Qualtrics.

There, leadership was treated as an independent variable:
direction, coaching, and career behaviors were measured directly by employees and correlated with engagement and business outcomes.

This rigor matters because many organizations suffer from leadership overload:
too many frameworks, too little coherence, and no clear connection between selection, training, assessment, and coaching.

When managers don’t know what truly matters, they guess. And guessing is expensive.

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Investing in people is demanding — and that’s why it works

Real career conversations take time.
They require effort, listening, and humility.

They force managers to see people not as resources to retain, but as humans to support.

And that is precisely why they work.

When people feel genuinely invested in, they take more responsibility, stay engaged longer, and deliver more meaningful impact — not because they are controlled, but because they are trusted.

That, ultimately, is what Emerging Leadership looks like in practice.

References:

• Radical Candor by Kim Scott
• When They Win, You Win by Russ Laraway

Russ’s insights provide a fresh perspective on leadership, emphasizing the importance of measurable behaviors, meaningful career conversations, and prioritization. Tune in to the full episode of Le Podcast on Emerging Leadership to explore these concepts and learn how to implement them in your organization.

Here is the transcript:

Alexis: Welcome to Le Podcast on Emerging Leadership. I’m your host, Alexis Monville. In today’s episode, we are honored to have Russ Laraway, an accomplished leader with 30 years of operational experience. Russ has held significant roles, from being a company commander in the Marine Corps to managing positions at Google and Twitter. He co-founded Candor, Inc. with best-selling author Kim Scott, and has served as Chief People Officer at Qualtrics. Russ is also the author of the insightful book “When They Win, You Win: Being a Great Manager Is Simpler Than You Think.”

Welcome to “Le Podcast on Emerging Leadership,” Russ! How do you typically introduce yourself to someone you’ve just met?

Russ: Yeah, that’s a wild question. I just say my name at this point. I don’t really say anything else. And I, and I have some reasons for that. I [00:01:00] think, Alexis, what you’ll gather from me over the next several minutes together is I’m a very intentional human being in, Ways that I think are perhaps uncommon and might seem a little bit nutty to people.

This is one such example I realized that what’s common Is that we often introduce ourselves and we sort of lead with our really our professional identity our title and company or whatever And that’s not even probably in my top five identities. I’m a dad, I’m a husband, I’m a friend.

And so I started to just become really conscious about that. Additionally, I kind of have to say that as my career has transpired, I’ve had some really, really good jobs that are, I don’t know, I think you might say objectively one might say.

They’re kind of impressive. Then I get into this problem where, gosh, I don’t want to sound like I’m bragging ever either. And so I really started to sort of subordinate [00:02:00] the professional identity in introing myself and just kind of wait. And if someone wants to talk about what do you do, I’m happy to, happy to talk about that.

Alexis: And what happens when you do that?

Russ: We have this house here in Utah in the United States. And it’s a very unusual house. It’s really neat, but it’s unusual. And when we show people the house and take them through, because. You know, some of the features and because of the size, it’s very common.

People, people think they’re being slick, but this has happened now like a hundred times, somebody will say, so what do you do? Because they’re looking at this house and they’re like, how the heck, you know, that kind of thing. And it’s funny, the first couple of times I realized, well, I finally, it took me a minute.

I’m a little slow sometimes to realize what people were, they were trying to triangulate. Like some version of how can you afford this? Right. So then that makes me even want to sort of subordinate the professional identity even more. And then I just generally will say I’ve been, I’ve been an executive in tech. So that’s kind of what I’ll say. Because that [00:03:00] is really, I know what they’re really asking and that helps explain, you know, this house. So I don’t know. It’s a really wild question. I’ve been very intentional about it over the last several years where. I’ll just let someone else, if they want to peel that onion and they want to find out what I’ve really done and ask questions out of genuine curiosity, I’ll go there with them.

But generally I just say my name and let other people kind of take the lead and see where our introductions take us. I don’t know. What do you, what do you think about that?

Alexis: That really resonates with me. For years, I introduced myself to anybody, regardless of the context, by stating what I was doing for a living. Sometimes, people were impressed, and sometimes not, but it always led the conversation to professional stuff.

While I would have loved to discuss something else. I am an avid book reader of fiction and non-fiction. I would love to hear about that or anything you are interested in, and necessarily what you are doing for a living.

In short, it really resonates with me!

Russ: Well, glad to hear that. It’s also it’s been frankly a mouthful the past few years. You know, I’m, I go from chief people officer at Qualtrics to chief people officer at Goodwater. By the way, wrote a book sort of in between those two. So I’m an author. Then switched over to operating partner at Goodwater.

So that’s kind of two titles in a little over two years and author and chief people officer of culture. And by the way, now I’m, I’m actually with some buddies. I’m writing a screenplay.

Alexis: Oh 

Russ: and, and so, you know, you just, it’s just tough to, it’s tough to fit it all, you know, say, say my name and see where it goes.

 I’m way more proud of, my sons and my marriage and my,, that I’m a good friend to people, I’m just way more proud of those things than anything else. So yeah, cool. Fun question. Great question. I’ve done a bunch of podcasts, I think, as you know, and that is the first time I’ve been asked that question and that’s really fun.

Alexis: I love it! My friend Michael Doyle, who is a great coach and a great communicator and also the co-author of my second book, wrote that question for me. I love that you liked it!
Your book, “When They Win, You Win,” proposes that being a great manager is simpler than one might think. Can you tell us more?

Russ: Yeah. Why I wrote the book, maybe I’ll start with why I wrote the book. It’s a really simple idea. I believe people deserve to be led well. You know, stop, you know, sort of that’s that idea itself is, can be unpacked for months, but the problem that I have seen and measured, by the way, is that actually people are not being led well and this is kind of hard to believe, in fact, measurably managers have not improved in 30 years.

This is like, you start to combine stuff from Gallup and some other like Qualtrics, other employee experience [00:06:00] companies, and you start to see a pattern that managers are really flailing in the world big time. I have a lot of rigor behind these statements, mathematical rigor behind these statements, as you know, in the intro and part one of the book. And then I thought, well, gee, how can that be? How can we be standing here? Employee engagement is a measurement that’s been around for 30 years. It comes from the field of IO psychology. And it is explained, by the tune of like 70 percent of employee engagement is explained by manager quality.

And employee engagement itself predicts business results. And so you’ve got this really interesting relationship, manager quality, employee engagement, business results, and engagement has not improved in 30 years. Managers have not improved in 30 years. How can that be when I can’t walk 10 steps outside without tripping over another book or podcast or article in HBR about how to be a better leader?

Like, How, how, could it possibly [00:07:00] be the case managers aren’t getting better when there’s a pile of content that’s taller than Mount Everest out there trying to help them be better. So I dug in on, on that and I had this realization. I learned this in my time at Radical Candor this probably my biggest insight I have from my time with Kim there, which I think might be on our agenda to talk about a little later.

So I can come back to that, but I had this realization that One of the reasons managers are failing is because all this content out there, including their training programs in their company, there’s too much stuff. That’s number number one problem is too much. We’re asking managers to pay attention to too many things.

It does not hang together, so there’s not a common system. Let’s say that is pervasive. There’s a lot of like, well, what worked for me, the problem with that is the person you’re learning from isn’t necessarily conscious of exactly why that worked. What was their business context? What was the team context?

What were their executive relationships? Like, what are the things that [00:08:00] contributed to you having success with that leadership advice you’re giving? By the way, worse, the manager who’s receiving the advice is extremely biased in what they choose to opt into or not. They grab for the things that sound familiar, the things there may be even already good at things that sound perhaps easier.

So there’s too much stuff. It doesn’t hang together. And worst of all, none of it is held to measurable account, like whatever leadership, you know, prescription you’re offering. What’s your proof that it’s worth paying attention to? There isn’t any out there. So I said, you know, there’s no wonder people aren’t being led well, systematically or the managers have not improved.

And by the way, like you’ve heard the cliches, people don’t leave bad jobs. They leave bad managers. Like I’m not exactly saying the most controversial idea in the planet. I just was, I was just like, how is it possible? They haven’t actually improved. That seems impossible. Well, that’s how too much stuff doesn’t hang together.

held a measurable account. And so I realized, Oh, you know, the world does not need another person’s opinion about what it [00:09:00] takes to be a great manager. What we need is to measure, measure a set of leadership behaviors, small in number, ideally, that measurably and predictably lead to more engaged employees and better business outcome.

And so my really talented team of quants at Qualtrics and I set about running that. Experiment, you know, we were lucky Qualtrics has an employee experience platform that, you know, it was very natural for us to measure a number of these aspects of the employee experience. And all it took was some cleverness from our people analytics team to mix these things together in a giant stats package with things like ratings and quota attainment and contract renewal rate and in engineering, like lines of code checked in, like any measurement you could find that would indicate business performance.

We could measure the frequency with which managers were showing these behaviors. And of course we could measure employee engagement. And by the way, several other aspects of the employee experience. And so we were able to tease out about a dozen or so. Leadership behaviors that predicted [00:10:00] engaged employees and better business outcomes.

That’s extraordinary. That’s never existed before. That’s the book I wrote and why I wrote it in the books organized by the way, direction, coaching, career. Those are the three buckets, let’s say. Of behaviors direction is a set of behaviors, set of behaviors, their coaching, set of behaviors, career, set of behaviors.

So that’s kind of why I wrote it. That’s the impact we’re hoping to have is let’s demystify this. Let’s take out a bunch of the bias. And let’s focus on a really small number of behaviors that actually work that matter. And, and by the way, in almost any context that these behaviors work.

Alexis: So you are telling us that the leadership behaviors you organized into the three buckets, direction, coaching, and career, are direct predictors of employee engagement and business performance. I have to admit, I’m a big fan of your career conversation approach, and I’ve used it more than a hundred times in coaching or mentoring session.

Could you explain this concept to our audience and share why it’s so [00:11:00] effective in managing and developing teams? 

Russ: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So part four of the book career this is something very original in the book. A model that I’ve invented over, got to be coming up on 20 years now, invented and refined. It’s called career conversations. And it’s three distinct conversations.

The first conversation is called the life story conversation, which is really about having people tell you their life story and then really taking the time to understand their pivots. Even at young ages, by the way, the pivots they’ve made and why they’ve made them. And through that process you learn sort of what people deeply value in their work.

It’s fascinating. And it’s important, I think, to do it just that way, rather than just to ask them what they value, because I think people accidentally frequently lie. They don’t mean to but they’re not actually generally conscious of what they value. But when you start, when you have them tell you their life story, And you help them probe the pivots that they’ve made.

You learn actually sort of a show don’t tell [00:12:00] version of learning what they value. So that’s the first conversation. And that really helps me understand things that in the, that are subsequent in the subsequent two conversations, things we should do, things we shouldn’t do, because we know what this person values.

The second conversation, which is the most important by far, is helping to get to what I call a career vision statement, which is basically like, what’s your dream job? What do you want to be when you grow up? And a lot of people, by the way, have skepticism that this is feasible for our young Gen Z employees or whatever, you know, like, People our age will say things like, I don’t even know what I want to be when I grow up.

I’m just going to tell you like, and I give a really strong prescription in the book for how to do this well, because it’s, it’s not, most people are kind of come into the room convinced they’re not sure. But you can facilitate them into the vision, and I teach how to do that in the book. I won’t get into it here.

It takes a little, a minute. And I’ll say for myself, I’ve done, I’ve done this a thousand times [00:13:00] and I have successfully facilitated every single one of those people into a, into a working vision statement. The reason this is so important is because it puts someone’s development into the context of what they want to be.

And by the way, those vision statements will generally be, and should be outside the four walls of this company. And this is one of the first powerful ideas is I have just acknowledged that you are a human being with a life well beyond. What we’re doing here in this office right now. And I’m interested in that.

And I think it’s my job to participate in your growth and development toward that. But perhaps more important is, you know, you know, question I’ve been asked Alexis a million times is should I get an MBA?

I’m like, man, I don’t know. What do you want to be? What do you, like, if you want to be the CFO at Disney as your, one of your, your career visions, then yeah, you better get one and you better get it from like three places, you know, that kind of thing.

But if you want to be a you know, if you ultimately want to write a screenplay. No, don’t do not go get an MBA. It won’t help you at all. The people who finance movies, I think [00:14:00] oftentimes wouldn’t recognize. A good financial discipline if it fell out of the sky and hit him on the head. And then last is the last conversation is really about the career action plan, which is now that we know what you want to be when you grow up conversation to now that we know what you deeply value, let’s put together a short term plan that helps you take tangible steps toward the longterm vision right now.

Let’s take some steps right now. You want CFO at Disney. Clearly I cannot make that happen, but I can help you think about ways to that you can take small steps in that direction and that creation plans it’s four parts. There’s four discrete aspects will follow we’ll set up action items who will do what by when that’s how you know, you have a, a good action item.

And so and now this employee and I are both actively working on their long term career vision, what they want to be when they grow up together while they’re reporting to me, it doesn’t mean. We don’t focus on the day to day work that has to get done. It doesn’t mean any of that. And, you know, it’s funny, one of the most [00:15:00] common push, I get to two sources of pushback most often.

One is people don’t know what they want to be when they grow up. So why would I bother with this? That’s. I’m telling you, they do. You just have to make it safe and skillfully facilitate that conversation. And the second is, wait a minute. Why on this company’s dime, should I be helping a person think about their longterm?

Am I not just lose, am I just greasing the skids for them to leave? And what’s fascinating about this model, and I give retentive. People tend to stay with a manager who invests in them like this for longer for a number of reasons. One is they’re saying, well, this is unusual. I’ve never had a manager invest in me this way.

I think I’ll hang out here for a bit. The other is like a lot of people leave a current job because they have this grass is greener problem. They think the next job is better. And what you learn. Is that you can potentially make small [00:16:00] adjustments to your job right now in your career action plan. The first thing we do is evaluate what can we change in your current role, given your longterm vision.

So for example, if you want to be the CFO at Disney, I can have you run my team’s budget. Now that might seem a little silly or trite. But, you work with FP& A now, and you see, you start to see from the inside, what does the CFO’s organization look like, right? It’s, it’s actually powerful. So now you’re not necessarily as inclined to say the grass is greener because we make small adjustments that are in my, as your manager, within my power to make.

We can make small changes to your current role. We can chart a next job for you. That’s maybe on my team or maybe on another team inside this company that makes sense, given your long term vision. Right. We bring to bear and people in our networks that can help inform and influence these decisions you need to make.

That’s a part of the career action plan. So it’s robust and it really helps a person feel invested in, in a very unique way. And [00:17:00] so counter intuitively. Whereas it feels like you’re greasing the skids for somebody to go sliding out the door. The reality is they tend to stay longer when the manager goes through the full career action plan model with them.

 At the end of the day, I think a person that you’re working with on this feels invested in uniquely and in a way that contemplates their humanity. Not just their sort of economic value to this company. And that’s, that just doesn’t happen. I don’t care. You know, it’s hard to pull off actually, as a manager, it’s hard to find those moments to invest in a person like that.

Given the core nature of our job is manager directs employee, Employer, you know, so I think that’s why it’s so powerful. I think that’s maybe, I mean, you could tell me you’re the one who says you love it. You could tell me why you think it’s powerful, but I, but I feel like maybe those are a couple of the reasons.

Would you, would you add or subtract anything

Alexis: That’s exactly what I believe. When we truly invest in people, and I’m truly that, like you say, I’m truly investing in you, we [00:18:00] take the time to make it work. And it’s a lot of effort. It sounds very simple. Yeah, there are three big conversations, but please don’t believe you will be done in half an hour.

It’s, it’s not true. That requires a lot more work, a little bit from you and a lot from the other person, by the way. That’s very powerful. And I had people targeted by recruiters outside of the companies. And sometimes you have people who are leaving or taking a new job in another company and you realize that, yeah, you basically were not there at the right time.

And when they are back in your company two years later, okay that means they should have stayed maybe, or probably they were not taken care of at that moment. That was a big mistake. And what I realized is once you have those conversations, they listen to the recruiter or even not listen to the recruiter, because those arguments don’t resonate with them because they have their development plan.

They have their action plan. Those things don’t fit their action plan. They don’t care. [00:19:00] They have a plan. They are working towards it. And that’s very cool.

Russ: That’s right. Yeah. A woman who worked for me at Twitter named Anne I had gone through the career conversations model with her and I knew what her vision was. And she had come to me one day with an external offer. This is exactly what you’re describing. And we sat down and we evaluated the offer together.

And we’ve reached the conclusion together that this wasn’t it. This isn’t the right move for you. I appreciate that. Maybe there’s a couple of things that might be missing here for you now. I get it. We’ll change. What would I change? We can, there’s things we can’t change. She was an all star, you know, she was going places and she has gone places, she’s the CEO now of Gretchen Rubin media.

Like she’s, she’s an all star. I’ve heard of Gretchen Rubin. And what’s, what’s interesting about that is given her. Long term vision , we were able to say objectively wrong step. Nine months later, she came in with another offer. And I was like, yo, you got to take this one.

And I, you know, so retention at [00:20:00] all costs is a bad practice. It’s not, it doesn’t put the human first. It puts the company first. And people feel that I had, I had a manager one time who. She talked me into staying at Google. I had a pretty good offer to leave my manager. She talked me into staying. I highly regarded this manager and the company that I was going to join ended up getting bought by Google would have been not only a huge payday.

I would ended up back at Google in a, in a good role, you know, and After it happened, I actually, when the announcement happened that we were buying this company, I happened to be in the air traveling to Asia Pacific, and I landed and I saw this news and it was, I dunno, it was a little bit of a gut punch, you know?

Because yeah, I was still trying to make a, a career here and I care about my financial outcomes like anybody. And when I got back to the states, she, our one-on-one, all she did was apologize because, she just tried to keep me on her team. She wasn’t really thinking about what was best for me.

I forgave [00:21:00] her, you know, in fact, that person’s Kim Scott, actually, who wrote Radical Candor, like, I forgave her so much, I’ve worked with her again, and this is what makes her amazing, she probably lost a lot of sleep that weekend, waiting for me to come in Monday, to put that one on one on the first calendar, first thing in the morning, so she could apologize, so I know what it feels like, when someone engages in retention at all costs and it feels bad, like don’t do it, you know, and it put our relationship in jeopardy for a minute.

 I don’t have a better relationship maybe anywhere in my work life. And she’s a friend, but you know, retention, all costs of losing strategy. So with, with Ann, we hung on to her because things she was thinking about, like you said, it was the wrong thing when the right thing came, I was like, Hey, Like Sting says, you know, if you love someone, set them free.

And so we did, we set her free and she’s had this, she became a CMO. She became a COO after that. And now she’s a CEO she’s so good. And she’s earned all of this. But we were able to help make sure she took the right next step given her vision.

Alexis: I love the All Stars story, but I definitely love the story of [00:22:00] retention at All Costs. I was about to interrupt you to mention that the manager was very good at realizing that they made a mistake and needed to apologize. And then you mentioned Kim Scott, the author of Radical Candor.

I love that book and I did an episode about the four quadrants of Radical Candor. Co founding Candor Inc with Kim Scott must have been a remarkable experience. What key insights did you gain from that venture? 

Russ: Yeah, I don’t mean to make everything about my book, but by a, by a mile, the theory for my book came from my time at Candor Inc. So let me explain that. So Kim and I co founded the company and, and basically I took on all of our go to market activities. We had a ton of demand for just what can you do for us with radical candor?

You know, like we had so much demand. The job was really about keeping out things that would waste our time. On the phone, I talked to like, I’m not even, this is not an exaggeration, a thousand [00:23:00] companies. 

As the chief operating officer, and, you know, basically that meant I managed our marketing person, Elise, who was amazing. And I handled all of the, all of the market based calls. I was selling our stuff, you know, workshops or talks and stuff like that. And so I would get on the phone and I would always start with a simple discovery question.

It was either or both, what problem are you trying to solve? And, or how do you think we can be helpful? And honestly, I’m just trying to get off the phone as quickly as possible if we can’t be helpful. If they want something we don’t do, you know? And so what I heard though, from a thousand companies was.

An alarmingly similar answer that I’ll summarize almost nobody said these exact words, but everybody said this exact idea, which was, we have an engagement problem related to low manager skill. Now, one group did say that specifically. And I [00:24:00] said, that’s the headline that everyone’s been telling me anyway.

So, so, and what they were looking for from us was some radical candor coaching stuff. That’s what they wanted, you know, cause radical candor. You know, direction, coaching, career, coaching is really, Radical Candor is really about improvement coaching more than anything else, right? Chapter 8, I think, of my book. And so, when people would say to me, we have an engagement problem related to low manager skill, I asked, To further clarify, if we were a fit for them, I asked, what’s the nature of your manager’s skill gap?

Alexis: Hmm.

Russ: And so they, they said a lot of things, but you know, you’ve seen a word cloud before.

So imagine a word cloud of all the words they said to me, but three jumped out in the center of the page, three words. Direction, coaching and career. And so that those are part two, part three and part four of my book. [00:25:00] Now that wasn’t sufficient. That was not real research. It was, you know, it was a back of the napkin research, but I took that research and I created a theory that we took, I took to Qualtrics and we measured.

Whether those were the right groupings or whether those were the most pervasive groupings. And I think that’s important because one of the questions I get asked a lot about this leadership prescription is, is that just for tech? Well, no, our customers at radical candor came from every industry, including by the way, government, including education, including finance, consulting, you name it.

I mean, I talked to every kind of company on the planet, big, small, it didn’t matter. And they all had the same exact problem with their managers. That’s a, that’s shocking to me. I mean, I couldn’t believe it. Like it didn’t, it’s almost when I tell the story, I bet listeners are like, boy, that sounds lucky.

But we, so then anyway, we took that theory and we tested it, tested it over four years, rigorously, measurably. And that’s how we just, we learned that these direction coaching and [00:26:00] career, they break down into about a dozen or so behaviors that when managers regularly practice them as measured. By their employees saying that they regularly demonstrate those behaviors, we saw that then employees became more engaged and delivered better business outcomes.

And so by a mile. The most important thing I learned is, Oh, everybody still has the same problems. Nobody who’s out there running their jib about or, you know, yapping about what leaders should be doing. No one’s listened to one customer on the planet because otherwise it’s the answer is so obvious.

And then I was able to kind of take that and study that very rigorously over four years. And learn that, Oh my gosh, these behaviors strongly, the marketplace was correct, these behaviors do strongly correlate with happier employees and better business results.

Alexis: Yeah, that’s very impressive. Reading about your experience, measuring precisely the impact of leadership behaviors in the book convinced me [00:27:00] to try the approach you outlined. By the way, thank you for the tools that are available online. That’s very convenient, very cool, and thank you for that. I should put a link to those.

I can see that And there were some things that I was doing and others that I was absolutely not doing. For example, I was not doing the live conversation. I was trying to get people to tell me about their values, but I was not doing that by listening to their stories. 

And that suddenly changed everything because, first, I needed to pay a lot of attention and do a lot of work to really try to extract that.

And, uh, and the first time it was very difficult. I learned to discover people that I, thought I knew, and I did not. 

Russ: I knew almost nothing about what they really care about. I thought, and I think the super human, I’m like a human leader. I, I try to know my people. I ask about what they do on weekends. I ask about their families. I ask about their health. You know, I, I do these activities that [00:28:00] we’ve been.

Incorrectly taught help us know someone and we don’t know him in a way that really is helps us to help, to help them grow in a, in a relevant way. It’s the big insight. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. You know, by the way, I just, I’ll say if I did, if I had to offer one criticism of the book, one thing I noticed is you’re probably an anomaly.

In that you’ve clearly read the book quite carefully. That’s just not common. And I’m not just for my book. I could tell I’d go do a radical candor talk back in the day. This is one of the most popular business books in the last decade. Right. And I would ask people who read the book and, you know, every hand would go up and then, then I’d get to Q and a, and based on the Q and a, I could tell.

That I’d been lied to because if you’d really read the book carefully, you wouldn’t have been asking the question you just asked me. Right. Same’s true of my book. And so the criticism that I have is I have noticed [00:29:00] that with a lot of people listening, not maybe carefully, let’s say you’re listening on two X speed and you’re, that’s during your commute or two X speed while you’re gardening, you know, let’s just say like that. What has happened is a lot of people have missed part one that talks about the rigor of the model. You know, it’s important to me to give the why, and part one gives the why. Most people that have the books, the book, it’s 4. 0, you know, it’s highly rated book. I’m not, but like people tend to be very appreciative of the how and what of parts two, three, and four, and they skip, they skip the the why.

And what’s, what’s extraordinary about that is that’s what, that’s what I actually invented that in career conversations in part four is fully, but the rest of it is a little bit kind of just cobbled together behaviors that help to bring the wider life and the actual invention. Is leadership as an independent variable statistically in a regression model, like the math of this leadership’s an independent [00:30:00] variable with engagement.

And business results as dependent variables. Nobody has ever done that before. Like it’s not that I’d like even want credit or something for it. It’s just like the reason you should pay attention to this book is because it’s the only book that has bothered to try to measure how leadership behaviors produce what we want.

Happier employees that stick around when they should and better business outcomes, which is all point. We’re all in the job to do, you know? So anyway, just a little, little bit on that, that I’ve noticed now a couple of years out regularly gets missed. Even, even among very intellectual types who I, you know, I thought, boy, boy, the intellectual types I know from Silicon Valley are going to love this.

You know, a lot of people miss it. A lot of people miss it because they’re not really reading it carefully. So I wish I wrote it a little better. To make that idea more obvious or make it more accessible for people with contemplating that people don’t read books very carefully. Very often. Does that make [00:31:00] sense?

Alexis: Yeah, it is very funny. If you ask people what they need, they need results. And for a lot of them, they understood that people engagement, employee engagement is linked to results. I usually describe this with impact and satisfaction. You cannot have one without the other, at least sustainably. And they have some common sense or street wisdom about how the manager role is important and related to employee engagement.

But when asked what they are doing about that, they tell you about incentives, without any proof that it’s working. 

Russ: Always. Yeah. Yeah. And then on top of that, you know, what leadership approach we follow suffers badly from like chief executive officer flavor of the month. I went to this thing with other CEOs and they were talking about, you know, I don’t know, situational leadership. And so now that’s what we’re doing.

And what ends up happening is then the people who do leadership development in some company. Now have [00:32:00] to pay attention. This is a new thing they teach their managers with, with, by the way, and I don’t mean, I’m not picking on situational leadership. It’s very popular for a reason, but I also can say it’s not been held to any rigor now we’re telling managers to focus on this thing and then the CMO, let’s say, or the CFO goes to some conference and they come back with some new leadership idea, framework, and they say to the, And then there’s the chief human research and nevermind what the leadership development person learned in their PhD and everybody wants that to get into the leadership model.

None of it has any rigor. It’s too much stuff. It doesn’t hang together and none of it has held a measurable count. Now our managers are confused about what they’re supposed to do. And, and, and on and on it goes over and over. And you mentioned like proof. The most important thing that that we did at Qualtrics to learn that this, to prove this was the model we used, I call STAC, select, teach, assess, [00:33:00] coach, all with that leadership standard.

The same leadership standard and the assessment was the key, a measurement for every manager in the company from their employees on whether they’re demonstrating these behaviors, not 360, not from the boss, the boss gets plenty of opportunity to assess that manager in other ways, you know, and so now managers even who thought they were demonstrating certain behaviors, their employees were saying, we didn’t see it, you know, and it had confidentiality, so they didn’t know who said what, you know, we had a very Because of who we were, people, the managers were inclined to look at these measurements and pay attention to them.

And so suddenly we could show a manager every quarter how their team was experiencing their leadership. We didn’t use a punitively. That’s the fastest way to get employees to stop telling the truth. You fire someone. We used it to coach, assess, coach, assess, coach, assess. Every quarter, a manager got an assessment from their employees [00:34:00] anonymously that was by the way.

Organized and prioritized around the things that were correlating very strongly with employee engagement on their team. So it was custom what they should focus on. And we gave them measurements of why they should focus on, you know, nobody’s doing that. And that’s why managers. They, they pick and choose what they’re going to focus on based on, I don’t know what way the wind’s blowing half the time.

There’s, you know, and, and the, what companies choose to teach, select, teach, assess, cause they’re teaching too many things and they’re confusing their managers. What should you focus on is not a question a manager can answer. Managers are, what I think I should focus on is they don’t know because they don’t have any sort of connection between the teaching and the assessment.

And there’s no connection between the selection for the job. The teaching, the assessment and the coaching, the coaching should, they should all be done around a coherent, concise leadership standard that we know works measurably predictably leads to more engagement and [00:35:00] better business outcomes.

Alexis: Yeah, I love it. I have one last question that I like to ask. Looking back at your career, what is the one piece of advice you would give to your younger self?

Russ: say, Hey, you had a good instinct. It was well executed. Do that again. And here’s what it was. I was in the U S Marines and I loved it. I really loved it. There’s a number of things in that culture that I miss. I’ve never seen again in corporate America, probably do another whole episode on that someday, but I loved it.

But I got out after four years because I realized that the tempo. Of the Marine Corps, the deployment schedule, for example, was not conducive to me being the kind of husband and father I would one day want to be. I wasn’t married yet. I had a couple other small complaints about the Marines too, but this was probably biggest for me.

We deployed a number of times. And I saw how it wreaked havoc on my, you [00:36:00] know, my Marines and other officers and things like that. So that’s the first time. Then when I was graduating business school, so, you know, let’s, I think I’m 33, 20 years ago. I was interviewing with like McKinsey and Bain and, you know, big, big consulting houses. And I came home one night and my wife said, and I had two sons already. I eventually had a third. I came home one night and my wife said, you know, She goes with like sarcastic air quotes. She goes, you know, now that you’re getting this fancy degree, does this mean you’re going to get a job where we’ll never see you anymore?

Alexis: Hmm

Russ: You know? And I, and so we sat down and talked that through and I made a promise and the promise was that I would never allow my career to get to a point where I was no longer being a good dad or a good husband and further agreed that she and the kids were the ones who got to evaluate that, not me, it was, you know, they’re the ones who are receiving.

My husband ship [00:37:00] receiving my fatherhood. It’s very similar to the assessment of the manager. I don’t really care what the manager’s manager thinks about how that manager’s leading. I care what the employees think people are fighting to attract, develop and retain my opinion of how good of a father I am or how good, you know, I got to look myself in the mirror, but I really want to know what my wife thinks about that and what my kids think.

Right. So we, we sort of stacked hands and said, Never let, never let the career get in the way of being a good dad. Good husband. What’s interesting about that, by the way, is I, as a result, I became a really good prioritizer. And, and I, you’ve heard, you know, I know you’ve read the book. I say the book prioritization is an exercise in subtraction, not addition, but it’s, it’s like, it’s like one of the most misused words in business.

I think only strategic is more misused than, than prioritization. People think it means a task list. It doesn’t. And so what I became very, very good at. Is subtracting work. It’s, it’s way easier to say than do by the way. And and [00:38:00] so when I subtracted work, that meant I tended to have usually a better work life balance, but you know, like I want people sometimes hear that and they think, oh, don’t work hard, you know, I won an award at Google for being a great manager.

You, the way you win that is one, you have to be. Not a dick, you know, so your employees are the ones who recommend you. And so if you’re a dick, you’ll never get recommended. And then you get chosen by the CEO’s team and they don’t pick people who don’t have like a reputation or track record of getting meaningful things done.

So I’m, I’m by far most proud of that award for that reason. So I say that just cause sometimes when I say I became good at managing my time, I became good at prioritization. I became good at subtracting work. Sometimes people hear the wrong thing. Sometimes when people hear work life balance, mine tended to be pretty good sometimes people hear doesn’t work hard.

And that’s just wrong. That’s a bad conclusion to reach. So anyway, what I would go back to my younger self and say is, this instinct that you had, [00:39:00] that you weren’t sure about, that by the way shows up again, In another 10 years in your early thirties when you’re graduating business school go with that What when you’re at the end of your career, which by the way, I pretty much am now.

I just i’m retired I do some speaking. I do some coaching when you’re at the end of the career All that will matter is you’re looking at your three sons you know, you’re looking at, you look at your wife, are we still happily married? Yes, we are. You’re looking at your three sons, how they doing? Do you know about them?

Do you know about their lives? Are you involved in their lives? And that I can’t, I can’t think of one other thing that gets anywhere near as important in my career as those things. So I would go back and encourage myself to follow that instinct that I, that I had. And, and maybe especially graduating Wharton wasn’t totally sure about it was, it was the right, it was the right instinct.

Alexis: I love it. And, , and thank you for sharing that. I hope it will inspire a lot of people to think and reflect on what they are currently doing. [00:40:00] Thank you very much for joining the podcast. I hope we will have another opportunity to discuss all the other things that we were not able to discuss today. 

Russ: Anytime you want, anytime you want. Thank you so much for having me. 

Engineering leadership lessons from Bruce Wang (Netflix)

Some leadership philosophies sound good on a slide and collapse the moment reality arrives.

Bruce Wang’s doesn’t. It is simple, grounded, and demanding. In our conversation, Bruce, Director of Engineering at Netflix, describes the three pillars he tries to balance every day:

• build a trusting team
• seek excellence and mastery
• drive customer delight and value

The tension is the point. You cannot maximize all three at once. Leadership is the ongoing practice of balancing them without drifting into extremes.

Trust is not given, even inside the same company

Bruce joins a new team at Netflix and starts with a clear assumption: people will not automatically trust him.

Yes, reputation helps. But trust still has to be earned. He talks about building what he calls vulnerability-based trust: showing you are a person, not a role, and creating space for honest questions and challenge.

One practice I loved: asking people who worked with him before to share “what’s wrong with Bruce” in front of the new team. It is a direct way to make psychological safety concrete. Not as a slogan, but as a lived behavior.

Vision first, then structure

Bruce describes a sequence that is easy to underestimate.

First, get clear on what the team is here to do. Not the tech. The purpose. The customer value. The essence.

Then, and only then, decide the team structure: the balance of managers and ICs, the domains, the diversity of the group, the shape needed for where you are going.

If you start with structure before direction, you end up optimizing for today and paying for it later.

The leader’s growth edge: letting go

Bruce makes a point that shows up again and again when leaders scale.

At first, you lead individual contributors. You are close to the work. You can shape direction through direct interaction.

Then you grow managers. And that changes everything. You have to scale yourself through others. The hard part is emotional, not intellectual: letting go of being the center of the system you helped build.

In his words: sometimes growing the team means letting go.

Process is not the enemy

Netflix is famous for “people over process,” and Bruce names a subtle trap: teams sometimes treat process like a dirty word.

But deploying code is a process. Offsites are a process. Coordination is a process. The real question is not “process or no process.” It is: what is the lightest structure that helps the team do better work?

Bruce’s approach is principle-based. Try something. Keep what works. Throw away what doesn’t. Do not force a framework just because it is fashionable, or because another successful company used it.

He adds a useful warning: copying Netflix practices without Netflix context is risky. What works in one environment may fail completely in another.

A failure mode worth remembering: the shortcut that breaks trust

Near the end, Bruce answers the question I wish more leaders asked themselves: what are your failure modes?

He shares a clear example: he moved too fast to present a vision, collaborating with one strong supporter but not building shared alignment across the broader senior engineering group. The result: pushback, confusion, and a hit to trust.

The lesson is sharp: speed can look like leadership, but shortcuts often bypass the very collaboration that makes strategy real.

If you take one line from this episode, let it be this: before you go fast, check whether what you are doing is a shortcut.

Leadership as a humble gardener

Bruce references Team of Teams and the image of the leader as a “humble gardener.”

It fits this conversation perfectly. The job is not to be the hero. It is to cultivate the conditions where people can grow, do excellent work, and deliver customer value.

Humility, curiosity, and continuous learning are not soft traits. They are operational requirements.

---

References mentioned in the episode

• Winning Now, Winning Later by David M. Cote
• Team of Teams by Stanley McChrystal

Here is the transcript of the episode:

Alexis: [00:00:00] Welcome to the podcast on emerging leadership. I’m your host, Alexis Monville. Today, we are diving into the art of leadership in tech, building and sustaining excellence with our distinguished guest, Bruce Wang, director of engineering at Netflix. Bruce brings a wealth of experience from the intersection of tech, business, and team culture.

His journey from a hands on developer to a leader focused on people leadership, culture cultivation, and mentoring offers invaluable insights into the evolving landscape of tech leadership.

Welcome to Le Podcast on Emerging Leadership Bruce.How do o you typically introduce yourself to someone you just 

Bruce: I’ll probably just say, Hey, I’m Bruce Wang. I’ve been an engineering leader for about 20 plus years two time founder. And currently I’m a director at Netflix.

Alexis: Excellent. Thank you. can you tell me about your key principles [00:01:00] and how they are essential to, to build an engineering 

culture? 

Bruce: Yeah, I have sort of this guiding leadership philosophy, right? I call it trusting team seeking excellence, driving customer delight. And so what I’m trying to kind of convey is sort of these three pillars for that. That every leader needs to balance, right? So how do you build a trusting team? How do you seek excellence and drive mastery? And how do you make sure you’re delivering customer value, right? And usually the challenges of engineering is keeping those in balance, right? And what I’ve learned over time as a leader is it’s all about the balance. You can’t get all of everything. You got to figure out how do you balance between these three?

Because sometimes maybe like you would break trust with a team if you have to do something on the seeking excellence side. Right. And so how do you balance that and make sure that you’re doing it well. And so all of [00:02:00] my sort of sub values and things I think about is under that principle.

Alexis: can you share your approach growing? A team of really starting something and, and help that team grow. 

Bruce: Yeah. You know, it’s funny. Cause I was like trying to think, do I have a formula and you know, it’s, and it’s interesting because just so you know, I’m actually taking on a new team in a week. And so I’m switching roles

and so I’m trying to think like, what do I do? Right. So this is, so I used to run a team called product platform systems. I’m sure by the time this releases, I will have the new job, which is a games platform and you know, it’s within Netflix, but it’s a totally different group. Right. And so I’ve been thinking about like, how do I, what do I do with this new team? Right? Like people know me but you know, not everyone right on the team. And so I think the first one I typically do with any team is. Set a vision first for [00:03:00] myself. So what what is this thing? I’m leading like what does this team do? What’s the essence their core, right? I think a lot of people think oh, this is the technology we build It’s like no no, but what’s the thing we’re driving at this goes back to the customer delight, right? Are we here for? Like our purpose, right? And 

I actually wrote this memo for myself to figure out Why are we doing what we do? And in this particular team right in the games platform team, right and it’s a newer team You know, I don’t I don’t know if people know but netflix actually have games and that’s a growth area for us, you know over the next several years. And so it’s very Interesting. Kind of a little bit like a startup, right? And so I think for me, it starts with sort of that vision of what the team is and could be. And then from that, the next is who do you have? Who’s there? What are you building? Like, [00:04:00] what’s your team structure, right? The other anchor point you know, building trusting teams is really around the makeup and diversity of your team. Who do you have? Do you have the right parts? Do I have enough managers? Do I have enough ICs? Are they focused on the right areas? And so here’s the thing is like, if you think about a leader, how do you decide the right team structure if you don’t know where you’re going? Right. And so that’s why for me, it’s like know where you’re going and then figure out the team makeup. Right. And then the last part,

I think this is the seeking excellence piece, which is, all right, what do we need to do now and do well, right. To deliver value. Right. And so it’s kind of like the vision, the team structure and our goals, right? What are we trying to do? And for me, I have a philosophy that I’ve written in my github page. And this is from a book called when now, when later, but winning now, winning later, which is like, you have to do tactical as strategic at the same time. Right. And so the goals that we have set is like, we have to deliver on 2024 goals. [00:05:00] We also have to prepare. For 25 and 26 and beyond. And so I think that that’s like kind of the, for me to get a team in a good place, you’re kind of building those sort of three things together. Now underneath all of that, you know, foundation to everything is trust. How do you build trust with the team? How do they trust you as a leader? Right? All this stuff does not work without trust, right? So that’s why trusting teams is so, is the first thing for me, is because, you know, I think you know this, if you don’t have a trusting team the vision is not going to make sense, they’re not going to trust you, right? The goals, they’re not going to push, and definitely hiring and conveying what the team structure is they’re not going to believe you. So I think that’s So, you know, like underneath that is constantly building trust with the team.

Alexis: help me understand that. So I’m a, I’m one of the engineers on your team, hypothetically, not I don’t know. You, you, you are the new [00:06:00] of that team. Do you believe, I will trust you like 

this. 

Bruce: So in this particular, no, you won’t, I have to earn your trust. Now I do have a slight advantage in the sense that I have been here for four years, so I’m not some random person coming in from the outside, you already have seen. Multiple outputs of what I do and how I think at the company. And, and so the good thing is my reputation precedes me. I hope in a good way. I think people, you know, I have team members who actually used to work for me who actually advocated for me. Which is always nice to hear. Honestly, as a leader, like that’s the only criteria, do they actually want to work with you again? And so that comes with some level of credibility, right?

So I’m not starting from scratch. But I’m doing actually something very early. I believe in vulnerability based trust, right? And so here’s what I’m doing. One is, you know, setting that vision doc early is to say, Hey, I want to learn more about the business, right? And I want to learn and [00:07:00] define a future that’s exciting for all of us to pursue. But the second is, The day I start, I have a town hall where it’s about me, right? Like, Hey, learn about me, read, read my leadership philosophy doc. You know, here’s my intro to me as a person, right? I live in San Francisco, you know, I have wife and kids, but, you know, like these are the things I like. I love food, right?

I love travel, all that stuff. Right. And then something I’m doing is have the people who used to work for me, that’s on that team now giving. Verbalize critical feedback. They’ve given me in the past. What’s wrong with Bruce? Right? And you now as a leader, you have to be careful because coming in new vulnerability also has to be earned over time, right?

If you just be like, I don’t know anything that’s not going to instill confidence, right? And so you kind of balance the like, I know what I’m doing, I think, but also I’m not perfect. You know, [00:08:00] I’m not infallible. I have, you know, I have weaknesses just like anyone else. So that’s how I’m doing it is right away. Try to build through that closeness of, Hey, I’m a person. And you know, I have flaws and then ask any questions and actually. I continue to encourage people, ask the spicier question the better, challenge me, question why I’m in this role, question what are we doing here push me hard, because what I’m trying to convey to the team is, I want the openness to discuss problems, I want us to be open about where our challenges are, you know, inside the memo that I wrote, actually I list out all the things I heard that is difficult for us as a team, And just wrote it out, like verbalized it and said, yeah, I know it’s really hard to be a startup in this giant company who’s been around for 25 years. Let’s not underestimate how hard that is, right? So that’s an example of [00:09:00] like, this is a difficult thing to do. And so that’s kind of like tactically what I’m doing as well is just introducing myself, but not not just, oh, here’s who I am, but like, kind of learn a little more deeply about me. 

Alexis: I have to admit I loved I, I would love to hear the segments wrong about Bruce. There are people that know you. I love the idea. I need to do that. The, the other thing is when you said you write the memo about the vision. Why are we doing what we do? That means you’re not doing that in isolation.

You’re, you are interviewing a lot of people probably the team and in the 

Bruce: well, and that’s the thing is I wanted to be careful, right? Because when I originally wrote when I started writing the doc It was for me to like write down what I thought this team was doing and I’m like, I don’t know enough so instead the memo became more like embrace hard mode It went from, like, specific, tactical, here’s the technologies we need to work on, to, [00:10:00] we need to embrace the challenges ahead of us.

So it became more of an inspirational, yeah I know it’s hard, but we’re going to have to do it. Because if we want to do, you know, I wrote something in the memo, I said, if we want to do extraordinary things, we need to overcome extraordinary obstacles. So. Anything worth doing is hard, right? Like, that’s just how things are. And so, the memo became more like, let’s embrace the hardness. Not overwork, but just like, yeah, it’s difficult. You know, you’re trying to build a new system, trying to establish product market fit, but you still need to integrate with Netflix. So how do you do it well? Right? That’s not an easy thing, right?

You got systems built for SVOD, not for games. How do you integrate with those systems? And there’s real technical challenge of that. And so I sort of shifted from like, here’s what I know what we want to do to like, I know how hard it is to be in the situation. [00:11:00] And then look, I still need to collect a bunch of feedback and, and figure out, you know, what’s wrong with it.

And, you know, I’m, I readily admit, like, look, I don’t know what should be in this doc. You know, I just kind of wrote. My initial version. But the, the good thing is, you know, the first few people I shared it with were like, Oh, this really resonates. So then I’m like, okay, I’m on the right track. Right. At least I didn’t write something and people were like, this makes no sense.

Why did you write it? Right. And so I think that’s also how I work too, is that I think a leader will put out a vision memo and they think it’s like written in stone, dude, we can completely change this however we want. Right. And actually more information I have will help us make this memo and this. Vision better, right? So that’s kind of how I’m thinking about it. And so yeah, definitely inviting people you know being transparent of what you’re trying to do. I think is really important You know, you kind of want to show I don’t know. I’m kind of like a show and doer at the same time You know what?

I mean? Like I you know, I don’t want you to just trust [00:12:00] me that I Am a trusting leader. I want to be transparent. I want to be open I want to be vulnerable like i’m just gonna like, you know Do it, not just say it. Right. And so I think that’s also important as well.

Alexis: Excellent. And the next question is also about doing and saying or doing and helping others. It’s about growing people. And I know growing people starts often with oneself. So help me understand how you. What is your philosophy about growing people?

Bruce: Yeah, I I think everything is about growth mindset, right? Which is just the idea is just because you don’t know something now doesn’t mean you can’t learn it. Like, right. The idea that you can get better and be better. Right. And so I think you said you start with yourself, right? You realize where your challenges are. You realize is where, where you, maybe your weaknesses are. And, and you, you want to like get better, [00:13:00] but the second thing about growing, which is also recognizing what you’re really good at, what you’re like exceptional at, right? Like what’s my superpower and how do I like do that more? Right. So I’ll give you an example. One of my superpowers is like connecting with people and networking within the company. And one of the challenges of games is that it’s sort of insulated and ice, you know, isolated. And so my job is using the connections I already have to start doing road shows, right? So that’s an example of like, how do I also use my own strengths to my own advantage, right?

And so that’s for me. And then, then about to the team, that’s where it goes back to earlier. I mentioned figuring out what you have, where the strengths are, you know, what can you push, right? Where can you help support and coach where there’s weakness or, or, you know, somewhere to improve. And so I think.

Growing people, I like what you said earlier is like, first it starts with yourself, right? [00:14:00] You have to be humble enough to know that, you know, you don’t know everything. And then I think when you work with people then you, you got to figure out as they. Build that trust, then they can open up to, here’s what I’m good at, here’s what I’m not, here’s where I want to grow. Now, also as a leader, the challenge is that, you know, I’ve had the benefit of leading ICs, but as I build up the team, I don’t directly lead ICs anymore, right? And usually I have managers who then lead ICs, so then how do you grow people when you’re not directly interacting? With the ICs, right? And so you have to grow your leaders, right?

You got to grow your people leaders and make sure your people leaders are reflecting sort of the vision and the ideals and pushing you as well, right? Cause my, my people managers pushed me all the time to get me to think, rethink and learn. And so I think that’s the other thing is as you move up, it’s really about scaling yourself, right?

You can’t meet everyone. You need to make sure you’re building [00:15:00] the scalable structures. So that the, your managers and their managers can like build strong teams. Right. So I think the growing also is about scaling out beyond just you personally, you know, one on one growing someone.

Alexis: Yeah, love that and it’s funny because I’m starting working with a new customer this week. And I always love when I’m able to meet with everybody on the team. And during the first call before we started, he told me, Okay, so there’s 800 developers on the team. And I said, okay, so that will not happen. I will not meet with all of them.

That’s for sure. So now we need to have a really good strategy to scale myself because I will not have 800 meetings during the first week. That, that not even during the first year, 

Track 1: it will probably not 

Alexis: happen. So, yeah, I am saying, and it’s, it’s really different to be directly managing the team of individual contributors.

And [00:16:00] starting to have managers will do that with you. ,

Bruce: By the way, that’s actually a really great tactical example of growing my team. If you look at my previous team, I, when I led Netflix, first team I led at Netflix was API systems, right. And it was just ICS, right. And the whole point was me coming in

to help. Establish like a team structure, but it was all ICs. And actually that was a real growth area for me is when I started getting, you know, man, engineering managers, it was this weird, like I had, you know, worked with a team to build out this vision, but then now I have managers who’s. Pushing that vision and changing the vision. How do I let go right? And so growing the team sometimes is letting you letting go Like you not being in it with you know, like because you feel like I felt obligation.

I felt like hey This is my you know, this is the team we built together I don’t want to let go and actually growing the team sometimes means letting [00:17:00] go

Alexis: Oh, I feel that’s important. Letting go. Okay. We’ll put bold at some point. So can, can you share a challenging project that really, really stretched your skills?

Bruce: Oh, man, they’re all challenging I mean When I first started, so I always tell my story of when I started Netflix because it was the hardest job I’ve ever done in my life, right? Times two, because here’s what happened first. I come into a dream company. Right where you you know, i’ve been following the culture for years I’ve designed my engineering culture based on the culture So you have an aura like I have no idea how it really is in the company I’m, just like oh my god They must know everything and they must be right on everything and they must be the best company everywhere, right? So you already have that first off you have deep imposter syndrome coming in then you have a memo that says

Keeper test dream team [00:18:00] a players, right? So then you’re always constantly worried. Am I gonna get fired like at any point? Right to then you come in and, you know, I’ve been mostly startup founder and, you know, worked at startups leading teams.

And this is a order is multiple orders of magnitude, higher traffic, you know, services much more complicated systems architecture, right? The technology is way harder than I’ve ever seen before. Right? So you got that. And it mixed all that together. COVID hits in March of 2020, right? So I start Jan of 2020, I get two months in the office and then it’s locked down. So you also are facing with an existential crisis within the world and Netflix. Cause Netflix was built to be a in person company, right? I still remember early on attending meetings with you know, we had this major API migration project, [00:19:00] right. Dot next to edge pass. So NEXT is this, you know, API platform that we built over many, many years, and EdgePass was kind of the new GraphQL like graph language API, and it’s been already going on for multiple years, right? And in the check in meeting, everyone was in the room. Right. Like literally all the engineers and I’ve never seen that before. I was like, Oh my gosh, everyone’s here. This is amazing. I’ve never, you know, like mostly work for startups where it’s all remote and distributed. It’s like everyone’s in the room and we’re talking about this project. And so you go and lock down everyone’s remote. So you’re also dealing with like the companies aren’t even prepared for that, right? Like, like we’ve never done that before. And so to me, that combination of just, do I know what I’m doing? Am I going to get fired at any time? Plus. You know learning an environment that like, you know, everyone was dealing with right?

Not just us was just super super hard and I don’t know how I got through it Honestly you know [00:20:00] i’m like I tell people it took me Nine months to really understand nine months to a year to really understand what the team did right? And then took me really two years to feel comfortable. And so that journey Here’s what’s interesting.

It’s not one difficult thing, right? It’s like 10 20 difficult things. And actually what was really hard about that situation was even after I built up, you know, good rapport, I actually fell down like a year and a half in where it’s like, Oh, I felt good. And then like I made a huge mistake with the team and lost some trust. Right. And so like, you have to then rebuild that and figure out, Oh my gosh, what did I do wrong here? And so the building out API team to be this more scalable team So the vision that I came up with was hourglass to turbine So hourglass is what everyone tells API is right? It’s in the middle layer between two huge [00:21:00] groups like UI and back end teams So, you know, we’re the middle layer that like a hourglass right that that That choke point. And we want to become more of a turbine or engine for innovation. So it took many, many years to figure out how to do this thing, right? This really complicated piece of the ecosystem and moving it to a more scalable architecture and team structure. And not everyone was happy about the move. Right. And so it that’s another

example of trusting teams and seeking excellence conflict with each other. Right. And so, so this journey was really a multi year journey that had come with many difficult up and down. Right. And so it’s not a single event that I can say, Oh, that one thing was really hard. It was just like the whole journey. Was really hard. 

Alexis: I love it. And the context was definitely how say, interesting or really challenging. When when I listened to what you said [00:22:00] about your, your leadership philosophy, I was wondering how the, how the system, how the, I understand the organization is really important, but I owe the system, the processes, the tools, are they, are they important in what you are doing or?

Let me understand how you you deal with that.

Bruce: Yeah. So when you say systems tools, do you mean like technical tools or do you mean like pro like JIRAs and Kanban boards? Like, I’m just kind of curious, how do you mean?

Alexis: I I mean everything I I want to leave it as much open That’s up. That’s all the things you you know that there’s a deming We’re saying always that a bad system will beat each time The system is really everything That people will interact with. And so I’m, I’m curious about what is in the system you and what you feel you are to 

Bruce: Right. So, so here’s, what’s really interesting about Netflix is that Netflix is well known for a culture [00:23:00] aspect called people over process. Right. And so actually, we’re like very shall we say, like, not anti process, but just like, oh, process is bad. And like, that’s actually a culture meme we have to break, right?

Like, process is not bad. I mean, deploying code, CICD, that’s a process, right? Like, you know, running offsite is a process. Like, you need processes, right? Like, and so you can’t treat it as a dirty word. And so actually, the thing I had to fight was how do we introduce some lightweight processes? Right. Can we just use Jira’s to track what we’re working on? Right. Can we have like a lightweight Kanban board, you know, to just see what the team was working on. So what’s interesting is what I’ve learned over time is that everything you learn, all the tools you learn, you have to apply for the situation and the problem on the ground that time. So what I had built before of like building Kanban, for instance, I, you know, [00:24:00] built Kanban processes.

And I, I, I’m kind of like. That’s kind of a strength of mine is when I read something about a process, I can kind of synthesize it pretty quickly and get to the core of why you do it, like OKRs or Kanban boards or whatever, right? And so those are easy for me to implement in a good way. Like Kanban is all about limited WIP, right?

Work in progress. Right. And you’re trying to stop the line when you’re having a problem, right? It’s not about filling it with a billion things. It’s about actually filling it with less things and

doing Right. And so those things I can do and so implementing some lightweight process when there was no process or very little, because at Netflix process was actually considered bad. Right. And so that was actually, the challenge is that you have to kind of take into account the team you have, the org structure and culture you have. And then figure out how to like integrate into that. I actually got feedback early on. It’s like You [00:25:00] know, I was trying a bunch of different things I read and they were like, Oh, my team was worried.

Like, Oh my God, this is some like guy who read a bunch of blogs and I was trying everything. And, and, and it was funny because, you know, I was doing that. That’s what I was doing. I was like, Oh, I read, this is a good structure. Let me try that. And it’s like, I had to adapt, right. And what happened, what helped. What helped the team realize is, look, I’m a startup person. If something’s not working, I’ll just throw it away. I’ll try a different thing. Right. I’m not going to try to force feed some process down your throat until I make it work. Right. And so that was my process is like seeing what worked with the team. Trying, what were the things that resonated? Didn’t, you know, I try to put stuff in air table. That didn’t work. Okay. Throw it away. Do Kanban boards. Okay. That worked. Cause we’re mostly using JIRA. We were doing sprint planning and we’re switching over. And so that’s the example of just. adapting to who you have and the company you’re in and being able to implement some things to put more structure [00:26:00] to just organize you know, the team a little bit.

And so I think for me, it’s not about a set thing, like implement these 10 things and it will work. Right. It’s about like, it’s kind of like that growth mindset mentality of like, what are we trying to do right now? And how do we make it better? So it’s more of a philosophy of how we get better. That’s seeking excellence. Making the system work better rather than a specific thing. So I’m more principle based on that than like a formula of things.

Alexis: I love it. I, I would love more people to answer that question with a more base. I just think that way would be more probably interesting for them to, to realize that implementing a framework or adopting best practices is not necessarily the best option they can pick. That really are reflecting on the core principles is probably 

more important to adjust and adapt.[00:27:00] 

The current 

Bruce: Yeah. I’ll get, I’ll give you a quick example here. Is whether we like it or not, I think Netflix has influenced the industry on like graph QL, right? Because my team, my team’s actually wrote blogs about sort of our federation technology and stuff like that. And I always find it very interesting when teams say, Oh, Netflix is doing it.

So we must do it, but why Netflix has very specific reasons why they’re doing it. You know it, it’s not just. Like because we want to you know, and I think that’s also very important like where I find it people like want to copy success Right, like oh this company’s doing this. Let’s just copy what they’re doing without recognizing what they actually need.

Alexis: Yeah. It’s a very, very dangerous do. It’s harder to really understand the core principles. So it can be off. Ah, that’s a, that’s good. You, you went from being an individual contributor to a [00:28:00] higher level leader in a, in a new large organization. And as you said, a dream company what, what is your perspective of what makes, what makes a good, a good people leader?

Bruce: Man, that’s so so there’s, there’s a book I read called Team of Teams by General McChrystal.

And he, he had one of the best lines. He said he looks at himself as a humble gardener. And it’s like one of my favorite images. Is like being a humble gardener, right? So one is being humble. Like don’t assume, you know, everything and the gardener piece is more about for me It’s the image of in the dirt with the team figure out what needs to be done clearing the brushes Making the environment in which everyone can grow right?

So I like that mentality of like Your job as a leader is to make sure everyone else grows and gets better [00:29:00] and sometimes it depends on what the situation sometimes you have to take a much more hands on approach Right given the you know the current team Structure or current experience of the team and other times you just need to let go and let let it shine Right, and so it’s it’s very dynamic, right?

It’s based on the situation so I think those those two things really speak to me like if I think about what kind of leader I want to be. It’s that it’s like that humble gardener approach of like being, you know, able to work closely with the team, but also knowing what you don’t know. Right. And honestly, I think comes down to just curiosity as a leader. Like, you have a lot of experience, right? Great, but maybe you don’t know everything, and that’s okay, and being okay with not knowing everything, and learning, and that drive and thirst for learning, and being better, like just being wanting to learn more and [00:30:00] get better, incorporate more concepts. Don’t think you know everything I think is just like a key attribute of any leader whether you’re a people leader.

IC leader

Alexis: Yeah, I love that. I love that. And a really good reference. I love that book. And I was about to say that there’s a, there’s a lot about curiosity, but you said it. That’s perfect. I will put the link the comments we are about to, to be at the end the episode.

What is the question I should have asked you?

Bruce: Well, that’s a good question. you kind of addressed it which I think you could have pushed more is the failure modes Right? Like you asked, like, Hey, what was the hardest thing? So I think that was good. But maybe even digging deeper on like, what were the failure modes and like, what did you learn from them? Because I feel like it’s not about the success that defines us as a leader. It’s about how we dealt with the failures that defines us. And so I think if [00:31:00] like, maybe it’s more like drilling down into where are some of those points that you learn from a failure or some situation like, you know, I mentioned to you like I had a problem with the team that I thought I lost some trust.

I had another one letting go right to my managers. I think those are always the, what I don’t like about the world of, you know, whatever you want to call influencing leadership, you know, talks is it’s, it paints too rosy of a picture sometimes, right. You’re, and you’re actually seeing a lot more practical discussions of like, what’s hard about leadership, not what’s easy everyone could talk about being a leader, but it’s actually pretty hard to actually be one.

Right. And so I think that would probably be, you know, a good question is to drill down in some of the failures more deeply

Alexis: do you want to, try the for us? 

Bruce: Sure, sure, sure. Many. I can’t, I can’t even pick all the mistakes I made. Let, let, let’s [00:32:00] pick the failure mode where I think this one is important because this is where I had built some confidence with the team. So this is when I lost some trust with the team. I had already built some confidence on like knowing what I was doing. And that’s actually, it’s funny because that’s kind of where hubris kicks in, right, where as a leader, you’re not being humble anymore, and you’re sort of like, Oh, I know what I’m doing. I’m just gonna push forward. And so the situation was that we had a new VP and we want to present our strategy for Consumer Edge, right?

So Consumer Edge was our new federated GraphQL API for the consumer product. We already established it for our internal enterprise within the studio applications. But we want to move towards consumer, which is the Netflix app, right? The product itself. And so I spent time with one IC who is a big proponent of that vision, right?

And we wrote the vision doc together and it was great. And I actually even said, let’s write it without even using the word GraphQL in it. [00:33:00] Because what are we trying to do, right? The vision is unified API, democratized edge, right? So what that means is you unify all the APIs together. Because, you know, before we used to have like per UI based APIs. With BFS or backends for frontends. And we want to unify on a single GraphQL API, but then democratize in the way that it’s unified. But the people that own it are actually the domain owners, right? So the identity graph is owned by the identity team. Not managed by an API team. So really excited. And we presented to the VP and, you know, I think it went okay.

And it was fine, but my team was like, what are you doing? Like, why are you talking about this? Like, we’re not even sure if this is going to work. And it was like, like multiple senior engineers in the team really pushed back on the concept. It’s like, we don’t even know if this thing will work. And why are you talking about this thing?

And, [00:34:00] you know, what are you trying to do? Like, it was almost like, are you trying to like dismantle the team on this new vision? Right. And I was like, whoa, what, you know, because of my push for speed and push for like, Hey, I want to get this in front of this leader. Who’s new. I actually didn’t take the time, right.

I used. My confidence hurt me here, right? I thought I built the trust of the team. I pushed fast and I didn’t collect enough information. And so when I presented it, it wasn’t a cohesive vision that the whole team supported, right? And then I had to go back and

really work with you know, the more senior leaders to define a more cohe I mean, I remember, I even remember us, cause it was lockdown, and we had to like find a room outside to like meet the four of us, right? To just like talk through the vision and be like, okay, what is really underneath this? What’s the meat of it? How do we really make it happen? [00:35:00] Not just write a doc. Right. And I still remember sitting with the four of us like outside discussing, you know, in person, cause you know, it was also remote. Right.

So that didn’t help. And we were like social distancing and trying to discuss this vision together. So that was, that was a key moment for me because I felt really bad and the team was just like, you know, we’re like, I’m really disappointed. You know, I was like, Oh my gosh, how did I mess up this bad? 

Alexis: thank you for sharing because it’s, it’s very interesting and it shows the other face of that. spoke about the humility that is needed and I love the way you presented the vision doc and the fact that it was really a collaborative document that you refine each time you meet with someone.

And then, yeah, you’re confident in that vision and you want to take a shortcut and Boom, doesn’t work. And it’s very interesting. Each time you, each time we take a shortcut, [00:36:00] should think a little bit about, is it worthwhile? Is it really a shortcut?

Bruce: yeah,

Alexis: And yeah, 

Bruce: yeah, yeah, no, that’s a great one. Yeah, I liked that term. Is it a shortcut you took? And absolutely it was a shortcut because it was speed, right? Like I wanted to go fast and like present quickly. Right. 

Alexis: Thank you very much, Bruce. Thank you for, for joining me on the podcast today. I really appreciate 

Bruce: No, it was great. It was really fun. Yeah. We’ll do it again.

In the latest episode of Le Podcast on Emerging Leadership, I had the pleasure of hosting Noah Max, a visionary in the realm of classical music. Noah, a composer and conductor, shares his profound insights on leadership within the creative arts.

🔹 Creative Leadership: Noah describes his role as a composer akin to being a thought leader, constantly striving to innovate and push the boundaries of classical music.

🔹 Challenges in Classical Music: He highlights the difficulties in bridging the gap between classical music and wider audiences, emphasizing the need to communicate its relevance and vitality in people’s lives.

🔹 The Power of Art: Noah passionately speaks about the personal and almost therapeutic impact of engaging with the arts, beyond intellectual understanding.

🔹 Leadership in Practice: Sharing his experience with the opera “The Child in the Striped Pyjamas,” Noah reflects on the importance of team synergy and the challenges of leading a creative project.

🔹 The Conductor’s Role: He delves into the unique dynamics of conducting, where a blend of vision, listening, and collaboration is key to creating a harmonious performance.

🔹 Immersive Leadership Workshops: Noah discusses his innovative workshops that allow individuals to experience the role of a conductor, emphasizing self-discovery and personal growth.

🔹 Personal Development: He stresses the importance of continually challenging oneself to grow as a leader, drawing parallels to physical training.

🔹 Mentorship and Inspiration: Noah shares his experiences with mentorship, both as a mentee and a mentor, highlighting the reciprocal nature of these relationships.

🔹 Future Projects: Looking ahead, Noah is excited about his upcoming compositions, including his first symphony.

🔹 Advice for Leaders: He advises emerging leaders to tune out the noise and listen to themselves, making decisions based on what truly matters to them.

Tune in this enlightening conversation with Noah Max, where music and leadership intertwine to create a symphony of insights. Tune in to this episode to be inspired, regardless of your field!

Listen now and let the music of leadership elevate your day! 🎧

References:

• Website (& newsletter signup): https://www.noahmax.net/

• The Child in a Stripped Pyjamas: https://linktr.ee/stripedpyjamas
• Latest Album: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_llt5MCJkJMI9SETVugyk22509cGtf7Xv4
• Website (& newsletter signup): www.noahmax.net
• SoundCloud: https://soundcloud.com/noahmax
• Vimeo: https://vimeo.com/noahmax
• YouTube – Noah Max: https://www.youtube.com/@noahmax6190
• YouTube – Echo Ensemble: https://www.youtube.com/@EchoEnsemble
• Publisher: https://ump.co.uk/composer/noah-max/
• A Child In Striped Pyjamas: https://linktr.ee/stripedpyjamas
• Noah recommended to listen
• Walton “Belshazzar’s Feast” – Andrew Davis conducts
• TÁR is the movie with Cate Blanchett, Noah mentioned
  TÁR – Official Trailer [HD] – In Select Theaters October 7
• Whiplash TRAILER 1 (2014) – J.K. Simmons, Miles Teller Movie HD
• Endymion Ensemble: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMkPiXbcKghBQ0jVuKNIxqQ

Transcript:

Alexis: Today, we have a truly enchanting episode lined up for you. Noah Max masterfully blends the art of music with the essence of leadership. He’s a creative artist, not only a composer and a conductor he’s an innovator in the world of classical music.

Alexis: Welcome to Le Podcast on Emerging Leadership, Noah. How do you typically introduce yourself to someone you just met? 

Noah: Well, it’s lovely to see you, Alexis. Thanks for having me on the podcast. I suppose I would go in with creative artist. Because that’s something everyone can relate to immediately and understand. I work specifically in the field of music. I do a number of different things within the field of music, including conducting, which I know we’re going to speak about later on.

But primarily, at heart, I’m a composer, which means I write music. And that sometimes leaves people a little bit nonplussed, because they’re not quite sure what [00:01:00] it means to create music from scratch, or You know for what context are you creating music? What does your life look like if you’re getting out of bed every morning and what writing music?

I mean, how does it work? So the way I would describe it is that I’m attempting to imagine sounds that nobody’s heard before and then notate those sounds either for existing instruments, combinations of instruments, or perhaps even inventing an instrument physically or electronically which doesn’t yet exist, in such a way, so notating it in such a way that Performers could then realize that vision for an audience.

And often for me, that’s within the context of classical music in the concert hall. Sometimes it will be for television, film, something of that description.

Alexis: Okay, that’s fantastic. So now I guess people are wondering, are, are we on a [00:02:00] podcast about leadership? And I’d say, yes, we are. And I will ask a question about how do you define leadership in that context of composing and conducting? And what are some of those unique challenges you face as a leader?

in the musical world. 

Noah: I suppose there’s two ways that you can look at a question like that. And one of them is intensely creative and one of them is intensely practical. So from the perspective of composing, I suppose it’s sort of like being a thought leader or a philosopher in that you’re trying to move things forward.

You don’t simply want to repeat things that have already been done although there’s nothing inherently wrong with that but you want to bring something original and valuable to the table, which is going to in some way move the dialogue forward during the course of your creative lifetime. And then there’s the more practical side, which I suppose Through my composing [00:03:00] through my conducting, excuse me, and my other activities one gets a little bit closer to this, which is the fact that there’s a lot of worry in the classical music world that we are in a sort of declining landscape.

It’s certainly a very confusing landscape at the moment. I think there has been a great failure in the world of classical music to communicate itself to the wider world and to build bridges with the wider world. To show people who may feel no great connection in their life with classical music, contemporary classical music, romantic classical music, baroque or renaissance music it’s felt to communicate the ways in which that can be an important, an incredibly vital and, and life giving and sustaining force in, in people’s lives. 

And so, you know, having failed to communicate that, no wonder people don’t necessarily feel as connected to it as maybe they could or should. And so, part of my mission in all the different things that I do is to connect people [00:04:00] with the arts in any which way, no matter what they spend their life.

doing. I would like them to have an inroad so that they can, you know, feel the beauty and the sometimes overwhelming power of these mediums in their own life.

Alexis: Wow, that’s beautiful. Ah, that’s beautiful. And I hope that will trigger the interest of people to have a taste at it without the intellectual knowledge that is coming to that. I’ve, I’ve observed times and times that people don’t Listen, or don’t watch paintings or look at it because they don’t have the knowledge that is going with it.

And I’m saying that’s, that’s like tasting food. You, you don’t necessarily have all the knowledge behind it, but you can taste it and maybe you like it. Maybe you don’t, or that could be a drink, that could be food, and that could be music, or that could be painting. Maybe just have a look at it and listen to what is happening inside [00:05:00] yourself.

That would be. Maybe your first time, don’t you think? 

Noah: Oh, absolutely. And the wonderful thing with these things is that there’s no incorrect response. Including, you know, perhaps a work of art which everyone says is a great piece of genius leaves you feeling cold. And, you know, that’s fine. It’s an intensely personal thing. I think to just sit and observe a work of art or to sit in a concert hall, which feels incredibly formal and sometimes quite rigid.

And to experience a work of music over a period of time. It’s an incredibly intense experience and it’s a beautiful experience, but beauty can be terrifying. particularly if you’re not used to it, if you’re not accustomed to it immersing yourself in that beauty can be a terrifying experience, and that’s one of the reasons I’d encourage everyone to do it.

I think that’s part of the vital nature of it. But you also mentioned the intellect there, Alexis, so just to pick up on that for a minute. Often I [00:06:00] find we over intellectualize, actually, the problems in our lives, whereas accessing the creative arts is to do with intuition and the realm which is beyond the intellectual and beyond the statistical and the scientific and the measurable, although all those do come to play in their own.

special, interesting ways. But so much of what’s important is not that. And actually, I think this is the sense in which this is a life giving force. So you compared the analogy with food and in some sense that’s correct, except that we all have to eat three times a day or thereabouts in order to sustain ourselves.

So food is a life giving force in a physical sense. We need the calories in order to sustain our lives. Just like we need a roof over our heads. Et cetera, et cetera. But You might say, well, why do I need painting in my life? Why do I need theatre in my life? Why do I need cinema, for that matter, in my life?

it gives you something which is completely personal to you and which is [00:07:00] not quantifiable, no matter whether you think you’re a creative person or not. And I used to be incredibly naive and evangelical about this. I felt that everybody was creative. And I no longer think that’s True.

And I think a lot of people actually feel tremendous pressure that maybe they should be creative and actually it’s not part of their nature to produce things from scratch. And that’s completely fine. a work of art can feel as though it’s judging you, but there should be nothing judgmental about the process of appreciating art.

And I would like everybody to have their own way in, perhaps to step out of the intellect. And this is something I continually remind myself that I need to do. as well, because it’s not always the best way to solve a problem.

Alexis: I love it! Thank you for sharing that. Can you share an experience where your leadership skills were put to the test. 

Noah: Well, the obvious one which comes to mind, and there might be some listeners who are aware of this, as I know you are I’ve spent the last five [00:08:00] years bringing an operatic adaptation of John Boyne’s novel, The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas. And you know this because you were at one of the instrumental rehearsals actually in London back in early January.

Can’t believe it’s so long ago already. But every single part of that process was a struggle. Writing the music was a struggle. Doing the research in order to take the entire project with the requisite seriousness was a struggle. Digging into my own family history and my connection with the topic matter was an immense.

Uphill climb spiritually and the logistics of putting on the performance, which we did pretty much single handedly myself and the Echo Ensemble, which is my orchestra, which sort of morphed into an opera production company for that project. And everything went wrong, which could possibly have gone wrong on ways to, I mean, I would.

We could just [00:09:00] sit here for an hour talking about the litany of things which went wrong and I was working all hours in a very unhealthy way. So it’s not something I would hold up as a model of good practice per se. And it’s certainly not an experience I would like to repeat. But it was in its own way, the best of times.

And the reason for that was because of the wonderful synergy in the team. And the only thing which functioned properly on that whole project. Was my team and I told them that and I even with all the other things vying for my attention. I made my priority to Nurture the synergy of that team and fortunately that turned out to be a good investment of resources.

Alexis: Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s very interesting what you’re saying about the unhealthy way and all the things going wrong. I was, I was listening to the serial entrepreneur, who created several companies not all of them were [00:10:00] successful. In reality a few of them were successful and a lot were small disaster and bigger disasters.

 and he was reflecting on that and he was saying, oh, you, read on LinkedIn and you believe all those people are very highly successful and highly driven and they are really good at all what they are doing and, and everything is going well for them. in reality everything is going wrong every day. And you just need to handle it. And sometimes you do it well, and sometimes you learn something in the process of, in your experience, and sometimes you don’t. And it’s even getting worse. So, there’s just a few things that matter, and that That’s how you are doing that, not all by yourself, but building a support team, you just mentored on that.

That was your team. So what happened with that team? What, what is that team and how it works [00:11:00] for you to work with the team? 

Noah: Well, there are certain differences, I suppose in that making music is a process which is incredibly emotionally vulnerable. and very intimate and you have to be sharing of yourself whenever you’re doing it. I was conducting this project as well. So it was my own music that I was conducting with a team that I had hand picked.

So these were all musicians I deeply admired and. respected and enjoyed working with, but when you’re working on topic matter, that’s as dark as that for a sustained period of time, it’s just a great challenge. And the endurance is a challenge. I mean, on a personal level, what I kept reminding myself whenever I was fatiguing, which was often was It’s never going to get better than this.

So just enjoy every minute, which seems counterintuitive again, given the topic matter, but, [00:12:00] but it was necessary to get through it. And actually on the team level, I think that was reflected too, because I wanted to make sure that there was enough room for. levity and a bit of risque gallows humor, you know, because you can’t just be heavy and serious all the time.

And opera making is fun. It should be fun. It’s very interesting to me what you’re saying about the, you know, the, the, the front facing is, is always incredibly. Successful. And then, you know, generally the failures are kept private. I mean, there was just such a huge litany of failures and false starts on the road to this project.

And without the support of, I mean, the whole team, but particularly certain individuals who were attached to it for, you know, right from the start years earlier. I don’t know whether I would have pushed through all of those, but it’s just interesting as well, when you zoom out. You know, if you read the daily news feed, it’s always bad news because bad news happens in the short term.

I do, I don’t do any social media. I deleted all my social media. I do a newsletter once a month and when you zoom out And you only [00:13:00] do your news once a month, generally the news is more positive over the mid and the long term. Just an interesting thing to, keep in mind. I mean, it’s wonderful that with pyjamas, I think, you know, given that I’d never put so much energy and effort into anything in my life.

And to see it rewarded and to see my team rewarded through the reviews that we got and the recognition that the project got was, was absolutely wonderful. But that’s not an accurate reflection of what was going on under the surface. You know, the duck’s legs were, were very much tangled in the weeds there.

Alexis: you mentioned the rehearsal I was amazed of a lot of different things, but things that I still have in mind, there were the composer and the conductor. And so that was your own music. But you were already comfortable with the musician to challenge a little bit the composer or to to make fun of the composer [00:14:00] in some ways about the music itself.

And I thought it was really funny to say they are, and you are making fun of yourself or Separating yourself from the composer, from the music, because now we are trying to to play the music. it’s two different times. And I was looking at that, it was really interesting.

And there was sometimes the, the explanation of the music also. What is happening? That to give the context of, okay, we are, we are starting at that particular measure and you give the context about what is going on and you you explain what is going on what you would like to hear and and there’s a dialogue with the the musician and i i saw them taking notes on the on the score about what was going on and and you give them feedback And they ask something and I was that dialogue was fantastic in a way in my mind the music is on the score.

You just play [00:15:00] it and you’re done and that’s absolutely not what is happening Which was amazing to me Do you have some some reflection about what is going on when you are doing the rehearsal with the team? 

Noah: Well, that situation was very specific. And I think being a composer who conducts creates a very specific. Scenario whereby you can offer certain insights. into the process of how something’s been created and what the thought process was behind it. Whereas if it’s somebody else’s music, you’re not necessarily in a position to do that.

Although even that only goes so far, interestingly. I often feel as British composer William Walton must have felt, there’s a possibly apocryphal story of a occasion when he was conducting his own great oratorio, huge orchestra and choir called Belshazzar’s Feast. Tremendous piece. I recommend everybody who is listening to this should go and find it on YouTube, but he was conducting a performance of it and somebody asked him a very [00:16:00] specific question of, oh, you know, you wrote this marking in this bar.

What did you mean? And he said, well, I’ve got no idea. I wrote it 20 years ago.

Not the response you’d expect or maybe hope for, but by the time we were performing that I had written the piece a year and a half ago in a frenzy of creative activity. And so much of the creative process is a mystery, even to the creator. So there were situations where people were saying, you know, what did you mean by this?

It’s like, well, you know, what did I mean then? What do I? think I might want now, and you know, are they the same thing? Possibly not, and neither of them might be right. So it’s tricky, but you know, under more normal circumstances, I, I mean, see with conducting, there are no normal circumstances. It’s an extraordinarily strange situation you find yourself in.

[00:17:00] Just to give people an idea, just the slightest idea if you’re an international conductor, say, and you are guest conducting with a series of symphony orchestras around the world, you’ll be traveling one week, one place, one week, another place, one week, another place, maybe you’ve never gone to these places before, maybe you don’t speak.

the languages in any of them, and you’re confronted with 80 people who you’ve never met before, and you’re all performing music in three days time that none of you have ever performed before, and somehow you’ve got to create a performance that is going to be spiritually valuable to the 5, 000 people who are paying to see it.

Or however many people it is. So it comes with extraordinary pressure, and it’s an extraordinarily aspirational job. There’s so much of it which is mysterious. It’s actually the mysterious elements of it which I really love. And when I’m introducing people who have no idea about conducting to it, as you know, I know you want to talk about these workshops a little bit [00:18:00] later on I think those mysterious and magical elements are the ones which are worth paying the greatest attention to, in a way.

But there is that magical synergy between the group, almost like a murmuration of birds. You know, how they know when the next one’s going to turn in that direction. It’s, it’s all just, you know, it shouldn’t be possible. It really shouldn’t be possible. According to science, it shouldn’t be possible for a string player to play their instrument in tune.

And yet everyone does. I mean, to get your finger within a nanomillimeter of whatever it is, it shouldn’t be physically possible. So, you know, what we’re doing here is the impossible. That’s what we’re talking about. And I mean that literally, not figuratively.

Alexis: and that and that’s a that’s a very interesting thing and I would like to go back to What is the level of freedom for the musicians to express themselves, express themselves when they are playing that music? [00:19:00] I thought there was a dialogue between the conductor and the musician. And so that means they have a degree of freedom in that process, individually and together.

So there’s something going on there, I believe. 

Noah: Yes, I think It’s very interesting because I think a group is looking to, the leader for the vision of the whole because everybody has their part to play in the whole. So you need to present a vision of the whole but not in a way that feels dictatorial. It’s got to start with listening and assessing what’s the player’s needs are as specialists.

You are essentially a generalist as a conductor and you are there to help a group of specialists achieve something together, which perhaps they hadn’t even dreamed of possible was possible when they were just individuals in their practice room or, or, you know, whatever it was [00:20:00] sometimes an individual will have an idea which is incredibly valuable.

Sometimes the hive mind will just come out with something which, you know, you never would have thought of. Much better than anything you could have thought of. And so rather than feeling as though you’ve got to impose your vision, I think there’s always got to be a dialogue between the two. And if you are trying to convince people to do something your way then first of all, you really need to be sure about it.

But also, you know, just telling people to do it isn’t enough. You sort of need to coax them to, to sort of, to try it and explore it and, and to maybe feel as though they thought of it themselves. And there’s a little bit of You know, magic about that as well. Maybe misdirection, but

Alexis: I love that because now I can see the parallel with the world of business and all the teams that needs or so the to assemble the creativity of specialists to accomplish something bigger. [00:21:00] and speaking of that, you offer. Immersive sessions with musicians for people to understand what happens behind the scenes.

And so what inspired you to start those sessions? 

Noah: that’s right. It’s an incredibly exciting journey, sort of honing these sessions into what they are now. I think I was inspired by the figure of the conductor itself, which looms large over the popular culture in a very strange way, because nobody really knows how it works. Conducting. Sort of this person who stands up on a podium and waves a magic wand, and there is that image there, that archetype of the magician, the wise old sage, and you’re sort of harnessing that power.

And that’s been an incredibly powerful icon, I mean all these films coming out now, there’s a film just coming out very soon about Leonard Bernstein who was a big force in the culture. There was a film with Cate Blanchett, the name of which I forget. [00:22:00] And you know, there was a film about 10 years ago now called Whiplash, which is an extraordinary movie with a great performance from J.

K. Simmons in that. So people sort of have these preformed ideas of what a conductor might be. What I’m very interested in is the fact that when one steps onto the conducting podium, your personality transforms. this is as true of me as it is of anyone else, and it’s as true of as it is of non musicians.

that self transformation can be, I mean, it’s incredibly volatile. But I think it can be a great vehicle for self discovery and for self actualization. And in that space where you can no longer verbalize, going back to this thing of intellectualizing, you know, when you’re confronted with a bunch of specialists who do something that you know, nothing about.

And all you can do is wave your arms at them and communicate yourself physically. Suddenly you strip away all the nonsense and you’ve got a space in which there’s this [00:23:00] embodied learning experience. And you can, oh, you can discover things through this, which I promise you, you could not discover any other way, given years and endless streams of cash.

It’s a unique experience and I recommend it to everyone. So this is part of my mission to sort of coax everyone into trying it, I suppose, and to see what it can offer them.

Alexis: you describe a little bit how it works? 

What people are supposed to be doing? 

Noah: So we have an ensemble and we have some music and the participants and I will do a little crash course on how you hold the stick, what the basic moves are, just get a little bit comfortable with that. And then we throw people in the deep end and we invite you up to stand in front of the group and We see what happens and whatever your starting point is, we work from there and it’s quite extraordinary because I’ve never [00:24:00] had a situation where we’re unable to make progress.

I mean, even somebody who’s never listened to a piece of classical music in their life. Sometimes people who have that actually have no foreknowledge. Often end up being the best at it, strangely. But you can make a lot of progress. And once you sort of got used to the very strange sensory overload, all these different things coming at you at once things start happening.

It’s very hard to verbalize. You know, I struggle to verbalize it. All I do in my situation as sort of mentor is I just try and again, just sort of lead people along and see if I can get them to notice the sensations within themselves and how they can modify what they’re doing to get a better more vibrant response from the musicians.

And we get the musicians feedback as well, which is It’s incredibly exciting because obviously they’ve played for many, many conductors. And I’ve heard behind closed doors from some of my players that actually some of the conducting they witness in these sessions is better than [00:25:00] some of the conducting they witness in their professional lives as performers.

So you’d be surprised at what you’re capable of, man. I mean, I don’t know. You should.

Alexis: really love that idea that people who know nothing about it able to feel it in a way. So, basically Listen to what is going on in themselves. Listen to what is the feedback they have from the team and adjust their behavior so that the result will be different. And basically that’s what we are trying to tell leaders in other fields to really understand.

How they should.

adjust what they are doing to have a different response. And that’s not, that’s not changing the others, that’s changing yourself. and look at what is going on, what is really going on. And it’s it’s very interesting that the parallel is so obvious. I am, and I’m now really excited and I would like to try that. 

Noah: [00:26:00] You should.

Alexis: When the people are going through that immersive experience what do you believe they take away from that? 

Noah: they won’t necessarily take away What they want, but I believe they will take away what they need. And it may not be something that they’re capable of verbalizing at the time. It will start off as a felt difference in the way they operate. And then maybe when you step away from that slightly remarkable experience and go back to your life, which is also remarkable.

I mean, everyone’s life is remarkable in its own way, but you know, it’s, it’s also repetitive and it’s the world that you know. You take the treasure back from the cave into the world that you know, and you see if there’s things you can do, optimize, streamline in order that you can find that sensation again you find out what [00:27:00] that embodied knowledge means to you.

I’m hesitant to say too much because. I don’t want people to come along thinking that they should. I mean, you might come to the session thing. Oh, I really just want to increase my confidence in front of a crowd. And, and, you know, my, my presentation skills, it could be something as simple as that, but that’s not, I mean, you’ll get that.

Don’t get me wrong. You will get that. And then some, but. it goes much deeper. There’s almost something therapeutic about it. And I’m very interested in the depth psychologists and their writings. And I’ve also, because of my, my Viennese heritage, my ancestors escaped from Vienna at the same time as the Freuds. 

And they were very much in that scene, which was filled with you know, these great thinkers and artists and stuff. So I, I’m very interested in all that literature and all that thought. You know, I’m hesitant to say too much because I think it’s something deep I don’t want people to have too many preconceptions.

Alexis: But I love it. I believe that we discussed [00:28:00] enough so that people can understand that that’s an experience that you need to live and something will happen. And I, I love what you are saying about, that’s not necessarily what you want, but that’s what you need. And that’s a kind of Nanny McPhee experience.

So, sorry, 

Noah: it’s funny you say that, because I, I often think of the Nanny McPhee thing, that when you, you want me, but you, sorry, you need me, but you don’t want me, I have to stay. Is this right? And when you want me, but you no longer need me, I have to go. It’s one of the tragic truths of, of life, I think.

Alexis: that’s, that’s a, that’s a very interesting, interesting one. So, how do you continue to, to grow and develop yourself as a leader? 

Noah: Well, you have to do things which are going to stress you and stretch you regularly. Anybody who goes to the gym knows this. It’s, you know, relaxation is no good, and pure tension is no good. It’s a [00:29:00] cycle of tension and relaxation which creates hypertrophy. And I think the same is true in terms of the challenges one needs to take on.

So I’ve recently completed this huge challenge and I spent some time after that feeling slightly listless with a big striped pajamas shaped hole in my life. But now I’ve got myriad new challenges which are really stretching me in completely unexpected and completely different directions. So I’m flexing muscles that I hadn’t used before and I hadn’t maybe even known were there.

And I think that’s, that’s crucial. 

Alexis: Excellent. I, I, I love the stress and stretch and the part with the, the gym that will really help to, to understand that. Do you have any mentors or role models who have influenced you? 

Noah: Well, I, I did. In some sense I still do. But I had a mentor called [00:30:00] John Whitfield, who was a bassoonist and a conductor. He founded his own ensemble, just as I have my echo ensemble. He founded Endymion Ensemble, which was a jewel in the crown of British chamber music making in the 80s if anyone’s interested in Endymion, again, you can find their recordings on Spotify, YouTube tremendous stuff to be found there.

I met John in the last years of his life. He was very unwell. He died quite young. He was in his mid sixties when he died. He’d had health problems throughout his life, but he was a tremendous mentor and support to me. We met completely by chance at a concert. So, go to concerts, you never know who you’ll meet. it’s strange to me now, because it’s been several years since he passed away. And Stripe Pyjamas originally was his idea, actually, we, we, it came up in a conversation that we had. he would have loved to have seen it realised. And, and that made [00:31:00] me think, you know, that he was investing all this time and energy in me, knowing that he wouldn’t live to see me fulfil my potential.

But it was what he wanted to do, and actually I’m convinced that, I mean, I, I supported him with his endeavours as well, and those were life giving for him in his state. But the ability to engage with. musicians and players to arrange and orchestrate music, which he’d always loved doing. And he did some of his best work in those last few years of his life.

So he was an incredibly inspiring man, a difficult man as well. And I think he wanted me to avoid some of the pitfalls that he felt he’d fallen into. when he was my age, particularly regarding the vicissitudes of a creative lifestyle, which maybe are more volatile than if one were working in a different, slightly more stable field.

Alexis: Do you have other people now? that are that are inspiring [00:32:00] you? And the second question that is coming just after is are you are you mentoring other people yourself? 

Noah: Hmm. Well, there are plenty of people I find inspiring. I find you inspiring, Alexis. But in terms of mentorship, you know, John was my mentor and I was very, very fortunate. Nowadays, I keep my own counsel and I do my own thing. So life has changed in that regard over the last few years. And yes, I do try my best to be a support to my own colleagues and to my students of whom I have a few and they’re tremendously bright and, you know, many of them conductors, some of them composers.

And so I try to just nudge them in the direction of interesting things. in order that they might shape themselves, which I think is what John did for me. And I mean, also [00:33:00] in funny sort of ways, I was a mentor to John as well, in that I encouraged him to remain musically active despite his ill health. I have a lot of friends of mine who are of older generations as well, and I occasionally try to provoke them and poke them into some kind of creative activity, which I think might be good for them and usually I’m right, so.

Alexis: Yeah, I love it. I love it. So, What are some upcoming projects you’re excited about? 

Noah: Oh, well, it’s mostly writing at the moment. I’m very deeply involved in writing projects. I’m currently writing my first symphony, which is a huge undertaking, very, very different from the first opera. And that is a commission for the London Mozart players, which is a chamber orchestra here in London, tremendous group, really lovely, lovely people as well, which is a wonderful thing.

I feel very fortunate to be doing that. And that will be premiered [00:34:00] in the summer as the opening concert of the Thaxted Festival, which was the birthplace of a composer called Gustav Holst. So if you’re new to classical music, you’re getting loads of names here today. Gustav Holst is one to stick into your browser, particularly because next year will be 150 years since he was born.

So it’s sort of commemorating that happy occasion, that milestone. So, so it’s all, it’s a great honor to be doing that. And I’ve got a number of Very exciting composing projects, which are lined up for the new year as well. So it’s going to be busy for the next bit. But at some stage, I look forward to getting back to some, some carving, some conducting as well.

Alexis: Love it! there will be a lot of references to add to the companion blog post And, and finally do you have any advice for emerging leaders, regardless of their 

Noah: See, I’m always just hyper aware of how specific my field is and in giving general advice. I never want to, you know, I’m just so [00:35:00] conscious of the fact that. Music can feel like an alien world, so could I really give advice more, more generally? Well, you know, maybe, maybe I can. At the risk of sounding blithe and clichéd, I think you’ve really got to learn to tune out the noise and listen to yourself. It’s very easy to expend a lot of energy on stuff that you do not care about and which you’re not really interested in pursuing for whatever reason. And there is so much static and noise out there now.

So learning how to tune your radio set so that you can figure out a good principle on which to make decisions so that you know what it is you want to do and where it is you want to go. I think, you know, whatever kind of entrepreneur you might be. That’s useful because you could [00:36:00] invest a huge amount of your time, energy, money, other people’s money into creating something that you don’t really believe in.

And I know people who’ve done that and, you know, they always learn from it, but never ends well. if you can avoid it, then perhaps that’s a good thing too.

Alexis: that’s beautiful. love it. I will add a few links about where the people can find your work, follow your work and get in touch with you. And I’m very thankful for having you join the podcast today. So thank you very much, Noah. 

Noah: Oh, well, Alexis, it’s been a pleasure. Thank you for having me, and if anybody wants to know more about what I do, they can go to www. noahmax. net. That’s n o a h m a x dot net. That has my music, my paintings as well and various other things. It has a place where you can get in touch. You can also find my music on YouTube, on Vimeo, on [00:37:00] SoundCloud, and you can also, through the website, you can sign up to my monthly newsletter that I mentioned earlier.

And that’s just a monthly burst of creative energy from my part of the world. And you can find out what I’m doing. And if you want to come be a groupie then you can find out where I’m performing, what’s going on. And nine times out of 10, I will be there. So if you want to say hello, that is also really the best way to do it.

Alexis: Thank you very much, Noah. 

Noah: Thanks. Bye.

In our latest episode of Le Podcast on Emerging Leadership, I am honored to feature Ioanna Mantzouridou, Co-founder & CEO of Dextego. Join us as we delve into Ioanna’s inspiring journey from her roots in HR to leading an innovative AI coaching platform.

Key Highlights of the Episode:

1. Journey to Dextego: Ioanna shares her transition from considering a PhD in organizational psychology to spearheading an AI-driven talent development platform.
2. Dextego’s Mission: Learn about her vision for reducing talent attrition through personalized soft skills training and the role of AI in democratizing leadership development.
3. Overcoming Remote Work Challenges: Insights into the challenges of developing talent in remote settings, especially during the COVID era.
4. Empathy in Leadership: Discover Ioanna’s emphasis on empathy, discipline, and a continuous learning mindset when building her team.
5. Addressing CEO Challenges: Ioanna discusses balancing fundraising, sales, and maintaining vision in the early stages of a startup.
6. Innovation Culture: How employee-driven innovation and aligning with company strategy can revolutionize workplaces.
7. Success Metrics at Dextego: The focus on top talent retention and the transformative impact of personalized development tools.
8. AI Tailoring for Career Stages: Exploring how Dextego’s AI coach adapts to individual skill levels and career phases.
9. Ioanna’s Leadership Evolution: Her personal growth since starting Dextego and embracing ambiguity and vulnerability.
10. Advice to Her Younger Self: Ioanna reflects on the virtues of patience and enjoying the journey.
11. Upcoming Events: Get a sneak peek into Dextego’s future events, including LinkedIn Audio and LinkedIn Live sessions, and the exclusive ‘Dextagon’ event for HR leaders.

Don’t miss this episode if you’re interested in how AI is transforming leadership and talent development. Tune in to gain invaluable insights from a visionary leader in the tech world.

References

• https://www.linkedin.com/in/joannemantzouridou/
• https://dextego.com/

Transcript

Alexis: [00:00:00] Welcome to Le Podcast on Emerging Leadership. I’m your host, Alexis Monville. Today, we are thrilled to bring you insights from a distinguished guest whose dedication to enhancing leadership through technology sets her apart. Ioana Mantzouridou, a community builder, talent development strategist, and fervent advocate for applied AI, join us to share her groundbreaking journey. As the co-founder and CEO of Dextego Ioana is pioneering and AI coaching platform dedicated to revolutionizing talent development. Johanna, how do you introduce yourself to someone you just met?

Ioanna: Awesome. That’s a great question. So I would say that my name is Ioana, I’m the co founder and CEO of Dextego, an AI coaching platform for reducing top talent attrition by half. I’m from Greece, so I’ve been living in the U. S. for seven years now, [00:01:00] and really focused on leveraging technology to push human capital further.

That’s my quick intro.

Alexis: Excellent, I love it. What inspired you to start Dextego?

Ioanna: So, my background is in HR I actually thought I was going to pursue my PhD for a second on organizational psychology, but then I ended up working in startups. I was the VP of people and chief of staff at the, at the end of another B2B SaaS startup here in New York. And I quickly realized, you know, the importance of developing talent and also the challenges.

that come with this development when it is in a remote setting, because especially during COVID, you know, everyone started working from home and I saw how hard it was for us to develop entry and mid level managers. And that’s primarily because [00:02:00] soft skills like communication, collaboration and leadership take time to be developed, right?

You need life experience. You need to go through situations where you talk to multiple people, you negotiate, you handle conflict between colleagues. And so it was very hard for us to do this and talking to other, you know, HR leaders and learning and development experts. I quickly realized it was not just a struggle we faced, but the whole industry, and that the current organizational tools we had, e learning tools, learning management tools, were not sufficient enough, because they lacked the personalization needed to develop such skills and also the interaction with the learner and the experiential learning, if you wish.

Alexis: hmm,

Ioanna: That is the moment when I realized that I had to do something and I created the team around [00:03:00] Dextego to develop an AI coach that can democratize access to such skills across the organization, especially for anyone outside of the C suite that couldn’t afford an executive coach or didn’t have access to an executive coach.

And make it in a way that it can leverage also the company’s internal know how. So we can integrate with the existing systems that a company has again, whether this is a learning management system or PDFs or, you know, information they have, we can fine tune our model to that so that it can speak their language and really maximize, the value it can give to its employee to support them during their day.

So high level, that is, you know everything behind the reasoning. And for me personally, there’s another layer of equity, which [00:04:00] in my opinion, you know, people with soft skills sometimes tend to have. Access to more opportunities, whether we like it or not. Because they’re not afraid of asking for help.

They’re not afraid of meeting people. And on the contrary, you have some people, like introverts, that without the perfect pitch, they won’t go out of their way to, like, go to conferences or meet mentors. And as a result they might stay behind. And I think this is very unfair. And it shouldn’t be the case.

But the right training can equalize, you know, the playing field for, for everyone.

Alexis: Very, very, very interesting. So I love, the mission of Dextego and how it, it aligns with , your leadership philosophy. you spoke about hiring new people and growing talents. So tell me what, what qualities do you look for in team members?

Especially in those [00:05:00] early stage of of a startup.

Ioanna: Yeah, I love this question because I was just talking to a friend of mine who were talking about the fact that outside of the U. S. recruiters tend to see employee, both as a person and as a professional. But in the U S we tend to have this distinction between okay, professional versus personal, like the same thing for coaching.

Sometimes you go to a corporate coach and they just talk about how to boost your revenue. And then you go to someone that has more of the personal life coach approach and you see that the way they coach people is different. And to me, Also coming from Greece, I think the lines get blurry a little bit.

And I like to work with people, but also hire people that I can see myself spending time with outside of work. So to find this like culture [00:06:00] personal fit I think it’s very hard, but it’s the number one thing I look for. I look for people that have empathy, because when times get rough this empathy will allow us to work well together and overcome any difficulties.

I like people who are very hardworking and disciplined. So that I can count on them and I know that if they say, you know, they will be on a task, they will actually do it successfully and on time. That doesn’t mean perfectly, that just means that, you know, they, they do what they say. And I think that is something I really value, trustworthiness. 

And lastly I love to work and hire people that are always eager to learn, like they want to be developed, because if you don’t have that willingness, no matter, you know, what your employer throws at you, it won’t [00:07:00] land, right? So this, I would say, is the most important part. 

Alexis: So let’s let’s speak about a specific challenge that you faced as a CEO and how you managed it.

Ioanna: Very interesting. There is a lot I can think right now, but if I was to pick one, as a CEO, you know, for an early stage company, there are two main things you should focus on, and this is fundraising, if you are not bootstrapped, and getting sales in. I don’t think that what I’ll say is just specific to me, honestly, it’s probably something other founders of our states face, but I think there is always a difference between where you’re in now and where you want to get as a startup, right?

Like you have limited resources, so you do what you can today, but you have this grand vision. And so [00:08:00] that gap is sometimes. It’s very difficult to put in words and to be explained to someone that just is getting introduced, for instance, to your venture. So when I’m talking to investors or I’m talking to potential partners and companies that are super established and it’s, it could obviously be a risk of association for them to work with a company that’s new, that doesn’t have the brand awareness and recognition in the field.

I found myself many times, you know. Struggling to find the confidence. To persuade them that they should work with us now, because I know how far we can get, and that this might take some time, but if I, as the CEO, don’t speak into existence this vision today, right, to get to that level, then what am I doing?

So, it’s Someone gave me very good advice. [00:09:00] It’s the fear, you know, of overselling and under delivering sometimes that holds us back. Or, you know, imposter syndrome, all these things, different terminologies, but I cannot wear all the hats at the same time because I won’t move the company further.

Like I have to think, okay, right now, I’m selling, then I’m doing customer success. Then I’m doing investor relations. So I think the biggest thing I’ve learned. This last month since starting Dextego is how to split these roles. So don’t get overwhelmed and don’t act for the best, you know, of the company.

Alexis: that’s in a way balancing the, the needs of different stakeholders. By playing different personas and you know, yeah, that’s, that’s really hard when you need to do a lot of different things by yourself. Yeah.

Ioanna: You know, as a chief of staff, it’s the same thing, but now it’s, I would say, with more responsibility.

Alexis: Yeah, that’s absolutely true. Yeah.[00:10:00] how do you feel, how do you believe we can really foster an innovative mindset?

Ioanna: Even a time where Suddenly, the innovation doesn’t come from the top. It comes from the bottom. I think employees have so much power today to drive innovation and to speak up about what they want to see in a company. So I think, you know, the responsibility is. Spread across organization like anyone today can bring innovation, I think, to a company because we see, and I’ll speak on the L& D side, like 70 percent of employees today say that they’re willing to leave. 

To go to a company that develops them. So, similarly, I feel like there is a lot of fear from leadership to not satisfy employees when it comes to [00:11:00] innovation, to leveraging AI in particular because the employees could easily go somewhere else. So to me, to drive innovation successfully, you just have, if I speak to an employee now, right, you have to understand how the outcome, the ROI of whatever solution you’re bringing in will help leadership achieve their goals.

So if you speak their language. They will say yes. I think most of the times employees find such cool tools they want to use, but they can’t make a case to actually implement them because they’re missing that piece of, okay, but how will it really help us achieve our, like, five year plan or, you know, our quarterly goals.

And at the end of the day, whether we like it or not, the leadership cares about these things because they have to report to someone else. So I would say. It’s more [00:12:00] about understanding the strategy of the company and identifying the right type of innovation rather than a question of is the company open to innovation, yes or no?

Alexis: it’s very interesting because you are looking at some success metrics that, that could be met using something. for your company, what, what success metrics do you focus on and why?

Ioanna: Yes. So we focus on top talent retention. Because no matter who, what CEO you take from what field today they really care about their top talent, right? They care about the people that can call and they know they will get it done. these are people that they’ll do anything to keep in their company.

And so when you’re able to bring them a tool that is very personalized, that it matches their needs where they are today and you help them develop for the next day. You’re able to retain [00:13:00] them, but the other part and I made a post about this is totally on the company is how the company does the right change management to explain to the company that implementing a tool like Dextego is for them.

It’s not just the checkbox. It’s something that they understand they need for their personal and professional growth, whether they’re. Working at this company or not, but as a result, the employees will become loyal because they will. be part of this company where the culture is always about personal development and moving forward and improving each other. 

But today, unfortunately for, you know, the lack of technology, technological advancements in L and D for the last years, HR leaders have had the misconception that they have no power because they can’t drive revenue. They can’t drive a significant[00:14:00] you know, metric in the company. So for us being able to deliver reduction of top talent attrition by half in just a quarter makes them the heroes they wish they were all these years. 

And now we can have a seat at the table and really have others understand that they can make or break a company. At the end of the day, we know without talent. You got nothing. No matter what strategy you have on paper, you have no one to execute. So, to me, it’s a very important metric, and we see it across industries from, like, consulting firms that are really suffering from attrition, to startups, to big enterprises, and it’s a way to impact, you know the workforce overall, and knowing that, It’s for their own development.

It’s, it’s a, to me, it’s a just cause.

Alexis: So you, you mentioned that the tool is [00:15:00] adjusted to the needs of the people. 

Ioanna: Yes.

Alexis: what kind of adjustment are, I mean If I, if I’m early in my career or if I am a little bit later in my career, like me, for example, with over 50, how does the tool with, will adjust to our needs?

Ioanna: Excellent question. So, let’s take an example of something that will not adjust first. Like you go to a learning management system and you take the same course. On leadership that everyone else in your organization takes, for instance, right? What we do with DexEgo is the AI coach is able to understand through your answers, the way you answer to scenario based challenges, your level of skills, and adjust the level of Difficulty or the types of questions it asks you, and I’ll give you an example, to really make sure you develop the right skills.

So, [00:16:00] for instance, let’s take an example of a salesperson, and the scenario could be, hey, you have this client, that they’re throwing you this objection. How would you handle it? So you record yourself through video. The coach is your facial expressions, your tone, your pits and content of what you’re saying.

And it gives you personalized feedback back on what you did great, what you can improve. And over time, by you completing some more challenges, it understands. For instance, you might lack negotiation skills so you can close the deal. So we’ll give you more feedback and more related challenges to these till it sees that you improve.

And what we have behind the scenes to track that is our proprietary coachability index framework, which shows you. Basically, how coachable you are, how fast you’re implementing that feedback and how you’re improving your [00:17:00] skills over time. Because at the end of the day, it doesn’t matter if you start at, let’s say, 4 out of 10 in negotiation.

What matters is that you’re able to improve to 8 to 9 over time. And that’s, I think, what any employer cares about today because we’re moving into this skills culture. It’s not just what you have on paper. Can you actually learn on the spot and develop? And can we see you becoming an important part of Our company, you know, in years to come, I

Alexis: Excellent. So now I turn back the questions to you, to you. Have you evolved as a leader since starting Dextego?

Ioanna: think so. No, for sure. I think you know, in startups, we have talked about this before one year equals 10. If you will, you learn so much, you see so much, you meet so many people like every day [00:18:00] putting myself out of my comfort zone being in like a situation for the first time. I love it.

It’s super, Intriguing and challenging, but it allows for a lot of self reflection. I think the people that are following my journey can see that, you know, since the last time we meet, for instance, a lot has happened, or I’m improving, or the way I handle things is developing. So, I, I feel like I get feedback from others, and also from my self reflection, I can definitely see that growth.

I think the most challenging thing is to be okay with ambiguity, right? And vulnerability as a leader, whether you’re like a leader for the first time or the 10th time in your career, there will always be some ambiguity. And I’m definitely learning to, to handle that better than I did some months ago.

Alexis: [00:19:00] So if you, if you could give an advice to your younger self. Before starting Dextego what would it be?

Ioanna: that’s a great one. You know, my number one weakness, I’ve always said, is my patience. I’ve always said that. Since I was young, I feel like I’m very impatient. So, life has a way to Teach you to become patient or else, you know I wouldn’t be able to do what I’m doing now, but I would tell myself that it’s okay when, when things take time, there’s actually a beauty in it.

Cause you can. Be more excited when you get to the end result, and you can Develop more as a result as well. So I would tell myself to, to be patient and to Enjoy each moment, whether it’s tough or not. I think looking back, obviously every difficult moment in your life has made you right for who you are [00:20:00] today.

And if you took that away, you wouldn’t be who you are. Thanks. My little speech to my younger self.

Alexis: I love it. Thank you for that. Oh, can you tell us about an upcoming event? You’re particularly excited about?

Ioanna: Yes, a lot. We have three events in November on LinkedIn Audio and LinkedIn Live. We’re talking about leadership. We’re talking about why mentorship programs fail and how to overcome that. About flexibility. And then in 2024, I can say we’re preparing what’s called Dextagon. It’s basically an invite only event for HR leaders and C suite here in New York. But yeah, I, I won’t say much more. It will be very exciting and we’ll talk about human potential and how to drive us further as a human race.[00:21:00] 

Alexis: Excellent. I love it. So where can people learn more about Dextego and get in touch with you?

Ioanna: They can go to our website at dextego. com. That’s D E X T and ego, dextego. com as well as our LinkedIn. And mine as well, you know, Ioana Mantzouridou and check out all our events and upcoming shows.

Alexis: Excellent. Thank you very much Ioana for joining the podcast today.

Ioanna: Thank you, Alex. Thank you very much for your time.

Remote work is often treated as a question of tools: video calls, chat, shared documents, and the right stack.

Lisette Sutherland disagrees.

For her, the real topic is remote collaboration, and the hard part is not technology. It’s the human side: how we handle conflict, how we build trust, how we manage overload, and how we stay connected without relying on proximity.

Lisette is the founder of Collaboration Superpowers, host of the Collaboration Superpowers podcast, and author of Work Together Anywhere (now available in French). Her work draws on an international life across Germany, the United States, and the Netherlands, and on years helping teams learn to work together from anywhere.

Remote collaboration changes what becomes visible

Lisette started with remote work almost 20 years ago, back when tools were primitive and connectivity was painful. Today, the tech has mostly improved. What remains challenging is what was always there: personalities and relationships.

She names it clearly. The biggest struggle is navigating people without slipping into judgment or defensiveness, and intentionally choosing curiosity instead.

Remote doesn’t create these dynamics. It reveals them.

Two classic failure modes: rhythm and conflict

Lisette shared two examples from her experience on a distributed team:

• One person worked at a very different rhythm, moving faster than everyone else, taking over tasks unintentionally, and leaving others feeling stepped on. The team wanted to applaud the energy, but also needed to name the disruption.
• In another situation, personalities didn’t gel. Conflict escalated into back-channel conversations and private chats. The team eventually added a conflict handling section to their team agreement and brought in an external facilitator.

A key detail matters here: the team had a flat structure. No manager meant no clear decision owner, which made conflict harder to resolve. When nobody holds the responsibility to decide, teams need explicit protocols and skilled facilitation even more.

And an important reminder: you don’t have to be friends to work well together. Professional trust is enough, and sometimes that’s the realistic goal.

Start with yourself, then build the agreement

Lisette’s sequence is practical:

1. Create a personal user manual. Get clear on what you need to be productive, connected, and healthy.
2. Create a team agreement. Most teams still don’t have one, even when they know they should.
3. Address communication overload. Meetings multiply, channels multiply, messages never stop. Proximity used to hide this. Hybrid and remote make it unavoidable.

This overload is not only tiring. It also makes teams reactive. And reactivity kills good collaboration.

Innovative models: fewer messages, more clarity

Lisette points to WordPress as a gold standard. They largely eliminated email years ago by documenting decisions in a structured way: a trail where context, input, and outcomes are recorded so teams don’t have to reinvent the same discussions repeatedly. Over time, it becomes an organizational memory.

She also shared a strong example from a large German company running hybrid PI planning sessions for around 100 people across Malaysia, Canada, and Europe. What made it work was not a magic tool. It was rehearsal. They ran practice sessions before the real event, so teams learned how to use the whiteboard, how to communicate during planning, and how to avoid wasting the first hour on tool confusion.

That investment creates a capability the company can reuse.

Face-to-face is a powerful accelerator

Lisette doesn’t treat in-person time as mandatory, but she does treat it as a catalyst. It speeds up bonding and trust.

You can build real relationships remotely, even deep friendships, but it can take longer. In-person moments compress time.

Remote is failing on a mass scale, but not for the reason people think

Lisette observes the current backlash: return-to-office mandates, leaders claiming productivity is down, culture is suffering, people are less connected.

She doesn’t deny the symptoms. But she challenges the diagnosis.

Remote work is often being used as a scapegoat for poor management. Many companies had weak engagement and weak culture long before remote. Remote simply makes it harder to hide.

Two experiments she’s excited about

Lisette is currently exploring two formats:

• An Icebreakers Playground: experimenting with icebreakers and tools to observe their effect on group dynamics.
• Virtual coworking sessions using Pomodoro: quick check-in, three focus sprints, short breaks, and a closing celebration. Simple accountability, strong results.

Where to follow Lisette

Lisette offers a Remote Working Success Kit, including a guide for a personal user manual, team agreement tips, and time zone guidance at:

collaborationsuperpowers.com/superkit

Here’s the transcript

Alexis: [00:00:00] Welcome to Le Podcast on Emerging Leadership, I am Alexis Monville. Today we have a special treat for all of you who are navigating the complexities of remote work and leadership. We are joined by Lisette Sutherland. A pioneer in the realm of remote collaboration. She’s the force behind Collaboration Superpowers. a platform that equips people and companies to work together from anywhere. Lisette is also the author of the book work together anywhere. a comprehensive guide to thriving in a remote environment. And the book is now available in French, by the way. With her hands-on workshops and her own podcast, she’s been helping teams across the globe to connect and collaborate effectively no matter where they are.

Hey, Lisette, how do you introduce yourself to someone you just met?

Lisette: I try to keep it as simple as possible because nobody wants to hear a long story, so I always just say I help teams work better together remotely. I kind of leave it open and that way [00:01:00] if people wanna ask a little more, they can ask it from whatever angle they want to. And otherwise, if they look at me with dear eyes, I just kind of move on to the next subject and I and I ask about them.

Alexis: I love it.

Can you share a specific moment or experience that led you to specialize in remote work?

Lisette: Yeah. I mean, it was a long series of small events, but really the, where it actually started was when I was living in Los Angeles almost 20 years ago, and I was working for a man who was building at that time an online project management tool. Now you have to remember, this is 20 years ago, and those tools were not available.

Basecamp had just started, you know, Zoho was still a very popular tool on the market. I mean, it was really a while ago. So there’s not that many tools out there. So the tool was interesting in and of itself because it was just interesting. But. He had us all over to his living room one day and he sat us all down.

He had like a, a pool. ’cause Los Angeles, so many [00:02:00] people have pools. So he had a swimming pool, so it was like a pool party. But he sat us all down and he started to explain his vision. And his vision was he wanted to end aging. So he wanted to stop aging. So his goal was he didn’t wanna die, so he was trying to figure out how to get longevity scientists collaborating together so that they could solve the problem of aging.

And he realized that these scientists didn’t live in the same town. And so he needed to create a tool for them to collaborate and share data and solve this problem. And so I remember sitting in his living room and. My mind was blown, right? I was just like, what a wild idea. And I thought, well, why not? You know, like, why not?

But the thing that happened was it got me thinking about what else could we do if location wasn’t an issue? So like, could we solve cancer? Could we, global warming? You know, so there’s a, there’s a bunch of things that played into it. One was [00:03:00] also that I had quit my job earlier, I worked for a, a big office and, I didn’t quite understand why I needed to quit the job.

I just knew in my body that I needed to quit, and eventually I learned later that it was because the office was so ugly. I. And I was having an allergic reaction to just the gray walls and the cubicles, you know? So all of this sort of played into me getting interested in remote work and I just started asking people how they were working remotely, what they were doing.

And you know, everything else followed in a long series of events, but it really all started with that weird conversation in that man’s living room.

Alexis: That’s very interesting, that’s more than remote work, that’s really that idea of remote collaboration.

Lisette: Exactly. I don’t care about remote work at all. For me, it’s way more exciting because what ended up happening after that conversation was my favorite band from when I was a teenager. I had met them because I’d been to so many shows, you know, but, and my favorite band called me to see if I could go on tour [00:04:00] with them now, because I was working for this man who was building an online project management tool.

I was able to work from the van with my team during the day with a mobile router stuck onto the window of the van, and at night I was tour manager and I was selling merchandise and part of the band, and I, I was on tour with them for years doing this. And so the freedom that being able to work from anywhere offered me, changed my life in that way, right?

I was all of a sudden I could work from anywhere. And so I started thinking like, what am I doing in Los Angeles? Like, I could go anywhere, like, why am I here? So, yeah, it’s yeah, it was bigger than remote work indeed.

Alexis: That’s excellent. Are, you originally from los Angeles?

Lisette: No, I have a weird history in terms of that. I grew up in Germany for the first 10 years of my life, and then went to the US for 25 years. So, consider myself American, my, my roots somehow where I grew up as American. But then 15 years ago, I moved to the Netherlands. [00:05:00] I’ve been in the Netherlands ever since.

And now I have Dutch citizenship, so I’m never going back. But but yeah, so I I’m kind of a mix.

Alexis: That’s well connected with

working from anywhere

and living from where

you, feel that your, your place, your home is. That’s, that’s really cool.

Lisette: And it opened me culturally also to understand how different cultures. So just to have an awareness of that so that that also helped

Alexis: I can totally relate with that. when you are used to work with people on only from the same country, you you start to understand really well the interactions, the way they communicate. And suddenly when there’s someone from another country that don’t have exactly the same norms in term of communication, So when you get to work with people in a lot of different countries that change your perceptions of other people.

Lisette: Yeah, indeed. And you never think it’s gonna be that big of a deal. I mean, I moved from the US to the Netherlands, so it didn’t seem like it was gonna be that huge [00:06:00] of a culture change. But it’s the little things, it’s all the details. yeah, never underestimate all the details. the

Alexis:

Can you recall a, a challenging remote work situation and how you navigated it?

Lisette: In the early days, all the remote situations were challenging in that it was unusual. It, the internet connection wasn’t good everywhere and so, You know, I say like I was working from the van, but it was quite painful to try to really interact with the teams. For me, the most challenging remote work situations now, now that the tech is better, comes in the personalities of the people that I’m working with on teams.

Right. So it’s the conflict, it’s the trying to understand somebody else that I think is where . Where it’s super challenging now, even for me at this time, is just really trying to navigate personalities and figuring out why people are the way that they are. Cause [00:07:00] I tend to be very judgmental and defensive, which are not good qualities and, and so it’s extra hard work when something happens to not have that knee jerk reaction.

Of like, what the heck is going, you know, what the heck? You know, I, I really have to force myself into curiosity mode. So I think for me, that is the most challenging situation. I know it’s not a specific one, but I wrestle with it weekly,

Alexis: I, like that you are self-aware enough to be able , to catch yourself,

Lisette: sometimes .

I’m not, I’m no angel. I’ll admit. I am no angel, but I am working on it,

Alexis: do you have a real life example where poor communication led to a problem in, in the remote setting?

Lisette: Yeah, for sure. I’m thinking back when I was on the Management 3.0 team and there there, the team changed quite a lot, people coming in and out. But there’s one a couple people on the [00:08:00] team, actually, there’s one person where they worked at a different rhythm. Than the rest of the team.

Like they were just so much faster. I don’t know what happened. They were like on, on, I don’t know what it was. They were just like moving at a on freight train speed and the rhythm really threw everybody off and we were having a hard time communicating about it because you don’t wanna tell somebody to slow down like that doesn’t seem, you know, you’re like, you know, you’re too good.

Because he was kind of taking every pieces of everybody’s jobs because he was just getting ’em all done, and everybody kind of felt like they’re, they’re getting stepped on. So that was a very challenging situation because we all wanted to applaud his enthusiasm, and yet we were all really annoyed by how like many things he was trying to take care of.

So that was a difficult conversation. And then there was another one where the personalities just didn’t gel. And in that case, It prompted us to create a new section in our team agreement about [00:09:00] how we were gonna handle conflict as a team. Like when it comes up, what steps are we gonna take? Because what ended up happening was everybody was talking behind everybody’s back, and it’s online.

So you’re just in all these private chats all day, you know, like whispering to everybody back and forth about what’s going on, and it just wasn’t helpful. And so eventually what we ended up doing is one, we brought in an outside facilitator to help facilitate the conversation because everybody was too close to it.

And the other thing that was odd in that situation was we had a very flat structure. There was no boss, like there was no one in charge. And so when a situation like that arose, there was no manager to make decision. the We just had disagreements and nobody to make the, the top decision on like which way to go.

And so we brought in an outside facilitator that just had no skin in the game, you know, they were just there to facilitate the conversation and that really helped. And from there we built our processes for the future. [00:10:00] But I have to be honest, we never ended up getting along. We just never liked each other, but I also learned that you don’t have to like each other to work well together.

You can still work well together and not be friends That’s also okay.

Alexis: But that’s a, good one about building your team agreements and, evolving your team agreements and maybe sometimes you need That’s okay. ,

And I like your second point about,

you don’t need to be friends.

It’s a, it’s, it’s an interesting one about what are your expectations on, being on the team.

And for some, people that’s definitely, befriending everybody, and it’s not necessarily helping them or helping the team. So it’s an interesting challenge.

Lisette: Yeah. Yeah, it’s, it is weird because you have to be professional, but not, I mean, it’s great when you become friends. Some of my closest friends are people that I work with. Like, you know, forever, you know, Canadian Dave, I have worked with him since I was 22 years old and, you know, we’re still friends to this day and yeah.

But I, I did learn you have to be professional, but you don’t have to be friends. It’s great [00:11:00] when it happens, but it’s not a requirement.

Yeah.

Alexis: That’s cool. Okay. so tell me, have you consulted for a company that’s successfully transitioned from the traditional setting to remote work?

Lisette: I have never consulted really. So I’m not a consultant and I’ve made the distinction early on and I’m wrestling with it now because I’m wondering like maybe I should consult with people. What I have always done is give workshops . so I, what I have done is I go into a company and I give a workshop and we create a super action plan.

Then usually in the companies that I work with, they’ve got an agile coach, or a Scrum master, somebody on their team that’s helping them integrate these new practices into their everyday work. Because I think with remote work, what it actually is in the end is a change management program, and so, I specialize in giving the workshops and seeding the information.

And then there’s an agile coach usually, or a consultant already at [00:12:00] company that takes over, the or one of my facilitators, they also do consulting. So anytime a company wants me, to take them through the process, I hand them over to the experts of change management,, or the agile leadership sort of method.

I don’t specialize in that, but I have interviewed and I have given workshops for hundreds of companies now, well, I wouldn’t say hundreds that have transferred from in-person to remote. That is a more recent phenomenon, but definitely dozens of companies now that have transitioned.

Alexis: What are the things, the typical things that need to go through or they need to already understand, so it can work.

Lisette: Yeah. One is I always start people off by saying you really need to start with yourself and creating for yourself a personal user manual for what it is that you need in order to be productive. Get really clear on that so that if you need to be around people, Make sure that you build that into your day or if you really, you know, if you’re not getting enough movement or [00:13:00] whatever your why is that you’re trying to work in this way, really be clear.

From there, then I always, say, you’ve gotta build a team agreement, and everybody knows this. I’ve been saying it for since the beginning one, one of my first interviews was about creating team agreements and I was like, oh yeah, that seems like an obvious one, and I’ve been teaching it ever since. And yet I would say 85, 90% of all companies that come to my workshops have no team agreement in place. So creating a team agreement is the next thing. And then the other biggest thing that people are running into is communication overload. Too many meetings, too many emails, just the bombardment of information coming in, it’s not slowing down. is the problem, right? We’ve tried filters, we’ve tried flags, we’ve been priori, you know, priorities on the emails, the, the channels. it doesn’t stop the information from coming. And so that is, I would say that is the biggest challenge or one of the biggest challenges that people are struggling with now is when you’re together in the office, [00:14:00] you can kind of manage that information overload by proximity because you’re all together.

But when you go hybrid especially, or just let’s just say remote flexible first. Let’s say flexible first. So however you’re working, that information overload with everybody in various locations has to be managed differently than we’re doing it now.

Alexis: Have you observed, an innovative work model, recently that solved those kind of issues?

Lisette: Yeah, indeed. And, the gold standard for this is WordPress because they’ve been working with their, they created a system, a blogging system called P two years ago and have actually eliminated email from the company pretty much. 15 years ago. And what essentially what they’ve done is every time a decision needs to get made, you know it ha it goes into sort of a sort of blog.

Sort of post where others can add information to it. Maybe you want a loom video or a link or outside information, right? And everything sort of gets documented. [00:15:00] And over time what it’s done is it’s created an organizational blockchain of all their decisions that get made. And so instead of all these emails going back and forth or a meeting about why is this thing blue?

They have a record of their organization and all their decisions that they can go back to so that they don’t have to reinvent the wheel all the time. So I find that a really innovative way because they found a way to document things in a, in a way that is useful. Otherwise, you know, it’s just information everywhere.

So you’ve really gotta organize it. And then another innovative work model that I’ve seen is just a company that actually has, this is one that has recently transitioned from in-person to remote. A company in Germany, and they’re a huge company with thousands of people, and they have started to run hybrid PI planning sessions.

So for those, I think I know your, your audience is very agile, so you’ll know the PI planning sessions, but these are basically [00:16:00] very large meetings of like a a hundred people. Are planning the next, let’s say two to three months, I think it’s maybe six, seven weeks. I’m not sure how many sprints they’re planning for, but they’re planning for like the next two to three months and they’re doing that all together.

Usually you wanna do it in the same room with like a big whiteboard with sticky notes and everybody’s there together, but they’re doing it across three time zones, Malaysia, Canada, and Europe. So it’s like 12 hour difference. They’re doing it in a hybrid way, and so I’ve found that just the focus and the attention that they’re putting on that to make it happen, I find it very modern and refreshing.

It’s not ideal and it’s very hard, but it’s a reality for many teams, right? Of course, you’d wanna do PI planning in the same room together. Of course you would want that, but the reality is you can’t. So then what? And so that’s the innovation there. I’m

really enjoying

Alexis: that’s very impressive. [00:17:00] How many people are there, are involved in those hybrid PI plannings.

Lisette: 100.

Alexis: Okay That’s quite a lot. Okay. I.

Lisette: It’s quite a lot. And the, and the guy that did it, he really experimented with it in the beginning. What he did is he actually ran practice sessions with all of the teams before they did an actual PI planning session. And they just did it to get used to, how do you behave on the whiteboard? How is it gonna be used?

How are we gonna communicate with each other as it’s happening? You know, like, let’s run through a demo together. So they did that. Then they actually ran the session and it’s working. I mean, it’s still painful, but the reality is that they can’t get everybody together.

It’s just

Alexis: Yeah, Okay. that’s a, that’s confronting the Brutal reality

it’s, it’s usually a good idea. But yeah, those big room

plannings are, when they are in person are, when they are in person and well facilitated, are usually really good. but [00:18:00] when you cannot do it. You need to find another big room and an online one can work.

It’s interesting. I love the idea of the practice session,

number of time when you start something and you make the assumption. Don’t ever make assumptions that everybody will be able to use the tools. I. And then you realize that they’re not able to connect, or they are, they don’t understand how to even create a sticky note, and you spend the first half hour to try to explain to people, while others are really frustrated by those people, that’s not really a good start.

Lisette: Totally yeah, a dress rehearsal is, it was brilliant. It was really brilliant and you know, it took him so much time. , like he really spent a lot of time on this, however, now, they can now do PI planning sessions on a regular basis. You know, anybody new that comes in will be helped by the collective of people that are already working on this.

And so what he did is he, you [00:19:00] know, he spent a considerable amount of time upfront to get them up and running, but now they’re up and running and they’re only gonna get better from here. Right? So the superpower that this company has now developed, I think was well worth any investment that they made into that.

Alexis: could you share with us, an anecdote about a remote team building exercise that had really a significant impact?

Lisette: Yeah, this is interesting. So this one was a hybrid experience that I had, but so I was working with the these people in person and remote, so it was a hybrid situation, but I was the only woman on an all male team, and. I don’t, I, you know, it never, it didn’t even occur to me. It wasn’t a thing, but it was just that I was the only one and it was so o like I was the, you know, so obvious.

And I was the only American on a team of all Dutch men. So, there’s a lot of differences already and I haven’t naturally enthusiastic personality, and I don’t know whether that’s because I lived in America or it’s just, Who I was [00:20:00] from the start, I don’t know. But I was really trying to tone it down and keep a professional distance with everybody and, you know, just being sort of very professional and not letting my enthusiasm or sort of my natural humor come out.

Also, my humor doesn’t come across as other Sometimes in languages know, I can really express myself better in English, I . So But I played moving motivators with one of the people at the office. I think he had seen it on my desk or he knew that I was, it was just in the beginning when I was first starting, to work with Jurgen and all of these things.

And he saw moving motivators and we actually played a game of moving motivators together. And what happened from the game is it turned out that his primary motivator was relatedness, meaning that. He needed to be friends with the people that he worked with. That was really important to him, much more than anything that he was working on.

And he had been trying to be friends with me and I was like shutting him down. And when I saw that [00:21:00] his big thing was relatedness, it was like this aha moment. And so it allowed me to let the guard down a bit. And we became friends and we’re still friends to this day. And I really, I think I owe it to that game because I didn’t realize he was trying to reach out.

And so one of the, I guess to bring it back to remote one of the things that I think the context that we sometimes miss when we’re remote is is what people need in order to feel connected on a team. So I think that’s the thing that I learned from that is you really have to ask people what they need in order to feel connected.

He needed friendship and I was just trying to fit in . So yeah, that, yeah, that was a, that was a mindblower, it was a game changer for me because now I think

in those terms.

Alexis: Yeah, I will put links, for the listeners.

Jurgen is Jurgen Appelo

moving motivators is one of the

management 3. 0 [00:22:00] tools.

So a few things that,

I will put links to because. Those are really amazing things, and you are absolutely right that that connectedness, that sometimes we are able to build in person more easily, but not always, because you still need to be intentional about it, online, it’ll, you definitely need to be intentional. So using those kind of games, understand the motivations of others. That’s fantastic!

you are also the host of a podcast I love.

That’s collaboration superpowers.

Lisette: Yeah.

Alexis: Yeah.

can you tell me about a story that on one of your podcasts that had really a significant impact on your understanding of remote work, remote collaboration.

Lisette: I mean, there’s been so many. I do the podcasts in order to learn myself. That’s what I mean. I’ve never, I look back and I see how people use their podcast as a sales [00:23:00] tool, and I’m a little bit ashamed ’cause I’ve never even thought about it. Like, for me, the podcast was always a way of networking with people that I wanted to talk to.

So I’m like looking back, like, how could I use this for, as like a, a sales funnel? But I, I just, it never even occurred to me, which is so silly. So you know, from the beginning I spoke with . These are all things I knew, but they were really reinforced ’cause I was speaking with experts in their field. So there was one Teo Haren, he’s a creativity expert from Sweden, and he wrote a book about why it’s important to change your place when you work.

And I remember him saying like, if the best place for you to work is at the office, then you need to work at the office. He has yet to meet a hundred, you know, one person that says a hundred percent of the time all year round. The office is the best place to work. So he really solidified for me that it was important for people to change their place just for the sake of creativity and innovation.

Right? Sitting in that same great cubicle every day was not innovative. So yeah, so that was a mindblower. [00:24:00] When I spoke with Phil Montero, I mentioned this earlier, Phil Montero was one of the leaders in this field way back in the day, and he was just too early. He was like way, way ahead of his time. But he’s the one that came up with the team agreement and in fact, I took it with his permission and ran with it.

But he’s the one that said to me, you must have a team agreement. And this was reinforced recently by when I spoke with astronaut Paul Richards in January. I wanted to interview him about . Extreme remote collaboration, like remote, like what are, you know, they’re working from space, you know, we’re just talking about time zones between like here in New Zealand, right?

Like space is different. And what he really said is astronauts train to have the right information at the right place at the right time. And a good example of this is in Houston at headquarters, all the channels are open. Everybody’s listening in on all the channels, right? So it’s just madness. It’s just you can hear and see everything.

So it’s like having Microsoft Teams and Slacks and everything [00:25:00] open all at the same time, right? Madness. But they all have specific protocols about if you need to get attention in a particular place, or if you need to show somebody something in particular, that there is a protocol that you use and then all of a sudden that person is dialed in, right?

And so it occurred to me that that is similar to what we need on remote teams. Or hybrid teams, I, I use them interchangeably is that we need intentional working is the superpower. That is the key to making it all work is, you know, there’s no one right method. There’s no one right tool. It’s all about being intentional about how you work together.

That is the only way, if the astronauts left it to chance, it would be madness. And it’s the same for remote, you can’t leave it to chance.

Alexis: that’s Very interesting. Once again, the intention is really key. So we spoke a lot about remote and hybrid. how important is face-to-face interaction in that age of hybrid remote work?

Lisette: I think it’s really important, but I don’t say it’s [00:26:00] critical. I don’t say, I mean, it’s not necessary. You can do team building online. It’s possible. We’ve seen evidence of it in many different places. I have my own anecdotal e evidence that I can share. But face-to-face sure does. It sure does make things faster and it enhances it.

So it sort of acts as, oh, I’m gonna forget the word. I wanna say enzyme, but it’s not an enzyme. It’s something, it’s, it makes things go faster. It it speeds it up. I can’t think of the word right now. So what I would say is, I mean, my experience with the Management 3.0 team was we worked together for four or five years before we ever got together in person because I was insistent that if anybody could build a remote team, I could do it.

Right. Like what kind of what? What sad confidence that was. And then we got together in person and it changed the whole thing. Like we got an Airbnb in Portugal in Lisbon and the team went out one night and we just got . I mean, alcohol was [00:27:00] involved. We were very drunk and dancing in the streets of Lisbon and having the best time.

And it changed the dynamic of the team. We were like a very close, tight-knit team after that, we had really shared something special with that and we’d laugh the whole night and the rest of the weekend. It was great. And from then on we met every six months and it only enhanced the bonds of the team. We were close before, but we were, we were different after.

I must say it was really different, so now I really recommend that people do it. The thing is, is that I know you can build a a bond without it because I also worked with a woman for nine years. She was in California and I was in the Netherlands. We virtually coworked together for nine years and she was one of my closest friends.

And so we did finally meet in person right before the pandemic for the first time. And it was fun because I knew, I knew her whole apartment because I’d worked with her for nine years. So I’d like had breakfast with her in the morning. I’d been to the bathroom when she put on her makeup. You know, like, you know, I’d seen, I’d been on [00:28:00] all the dates that she’s been on and the, I didn’t go on the dates with her, but you know, like I got to hear about all the dates that she’d been on.

So I’d like seen her clothes and helped her pick out outfits and things, you know, like we had a real friendship as if we were hanging out together. it’s possible, it just takes a long time.

Alexis: it’s very, very interesting to see the difference. the Airbnb aspect of it. I was on, That team, we had a Airbnb too. Cooking the meal together is making you close.

That’s probably an experience that people need to live from time to time.

Lisette: Yeah. Yeah. And it’s, you know, there’s just nothing like sharing a big pile of nachos together. and just hanging. It’s, there’s just nothing like that online yet. And yeah, I don’t believe in replacing that either. I think people were naturally like that

Alexis: So, everything rosy, but do you have a, a real life experience when remote work, remote [00:29:00] collaboration fail?

Lisette: We see it everywhere. It’s failing now, right? There’s all the return to office mandates that are happening now. So I would say we’re actually seeing remote failing on a mass scale at the moment because leaders are saying that productivity is down, people are disappearing, and culture is suffering.

Alexis: Mm-hmm.

Lisette: People feel less connected to the company now, and I, I can’t dispute that. I mean, the data shows that productivity is a bit down. You’re hearing stories of shenanigans, but that’s ’cause those are the fun stories to hear, right? The people that have two to three jobs, the, the people that are just, you know, they’ve got like a robot moving the key, the mouse so that it looks like they’re active.

And I mean, I think we’re just seeing remote work fails everywhere in the moment. And because it’s not for everybody and if you wanna do it, you really have to set yourself up to do it well.

Alexis: Hmm.

Lisette: So, I mean, [00:30:00] yeah, I, I can’t dispute the data. People are, one is people are less connected to the companies, but I also think, you know, that’s somewhat the company’s responsibility also because we need to figure out like, what do people need in order to feel connected to the company?

Alexis: Yeah, I have the, the feeling that it’s, We are blaming remote work for that lack of connection and lack of engagement. at the same time, when I look at the, the Gallup survey that they are doing for more than 20 years now, engagement was already low for a lot of companies. For a really long time. So,

yes, we can blame remote work I’m not completely sure the, the, the reason is, is there, and the mandate to be back to the office will really help with that. So, i would encourage people to, to dig a little bit deeper than.

Lisette: I totally agree. I’ve been saying, and I shouldn’t say that, I shouldn’t say this on a podcast, but Okay. I think that remote work is being used as a scapegoat for [00:31:00] poor management.

Alexis: Yeah.

Lisette: I think they’re blaming remote work, but actually it’s, it’s the way that we’re, it’s the way that we’re working. That’s not, that’s not working and it’s, but it has nothing to do with remote.

It’s just that it’s highlighted by remote. You hide it can’t with remote weirdly enough.

Alexis: I like that. so, can you tell us about an upcoming workshop or event you are particularly excited about?

Lisette: Well, I’m experimenting with two new kinds of events, so we all, you know, we have the workshops about remote working. We’ve got one on hybrid and leadership and the work together anywhere is our flagship workshop. And those are all standard well-oiled machines at this point. Like we’ve given them thousands of times, like we know the, the right, the right stuff.

It’s good. I’m experimenting now with something called an icebreakers playground. The point of this is to just play around with various icebreakers and various tools to understand their effect on group dynamics. [00:32:00] So for example, if you’re trying to get a group to get together and have, have big ideas, you want ’em to think outside the box, right?

And do something new. Are there exercises that you can do remotely to warm a group up in that way

Alexis: Mm-hmm.

Lisette: Or, you know, like maybe it’s a new tool. And so I, I’ve called it the icebreakers playground because one, it’s experimental for me. I don’t know what’s gonna happen. And so, you know, in my designed workshop, I know exactly what’s happen.

It’s been designed that way, but in the playground it’s really experimental. And so I’m very uncomfortable with the, the improv of it all because it never goes as planned. And yeah, it’s always a bit scary as a facilitator ’cause it never goes as planned. But it’s really fun to play around with all these different activities and exercises for just how to get to know each other and how to create a specific group dynamic.

And then the second event that I’m working on is virtual coworking sessions. And what these sessions are, are basically[00:33:00] we use the Pomodoro technique. People show up, they say, what are you, what are you gonna get done over the next two hours? And then we, and we do like a quick icebreaker, what are you gonna get done?

That just lasts less than 10 minutes. And then we do 30 minutes of focused work. We have the camera on and the sound off. Then we take a five minute break, we come back, do 30 more minutes, another five minute break, and then a third 30 minute session. And then we end by checking in with each other for what did you get done?

How’s it going? And we do a little celebration and then we move on with our day. And they’re just, it’s amazing how much you get done with three 30 fo with 30 minute focus sessions. And it’s amazing how much more you focused when watching other people are there you. Sometimes I’m, you know, like my mind is, I have like monkey brain, right?

It’s all over the place. And so I’m like, oh yeah, I could. I’m like, no, no, no. I, I’m doing this task. I’m focused here with this person. Oh, no, no, you know, no, no, I’m doing this task. [00:34:00] So it’s, it’s, and it’s really fun. They’re free you know, we’re just playing around with them just to get stuff done and see what it’s like to virtually co-work with each other, what comes up.

So those are two events I am really enjoying.

Alexis: That’s fantastic excited about it.

I know that there’s some tasks that I really want to do. As soon as I start to work on it, I’m already procrastinating and I’m already finding new things to do or things to fix or, or let me do and then, and an hour pass. So I believe, I will go to, in one of the coworking session.

Lisette: Good. Yeah, that’s exactly what these sessions are for. Like, if you’re at home alone, you know you need to do it. You don’t really have to do it though, right? Like if you don’t get it done, it’s not gonna hurt anything. But it’s, it’s exactly for tasks like that. So yeah, join us. Join us and have some accountability.

It’s super fun.

Alexis: That’s very cool. So where can our listeners follow you to get more real world tips on remote work or remote collaboration?

Lisette: Well, what I’ve done [00:35:00] is I’ve put together I call it a super kit. It’s a remote working success kit and it has a guide for creating your personal user manual, how to set up a team agreement some time zone tips, and it’s got also the super cards, right? So if you’ve got like a PDF where you can print most popular. And you can get that at collaborationsuperpowers.com/superkit.

Alexis: Excellent. Thank you very much, Lizette, for having joined the the podcast.

Lisette: Was my honor. Thank ​you!

This is Le Podcast on Emerging Leadership. Today’s episode is a little different.

For this recording, OpenAI is the host. Just for today. The regular host shared the BEPS framework with OpenAI and asked for questions to ask.

Emma Monville impersonated OpenAI for the recording.

Now that this is clarified, let’s continue.

The BEPS framework: four axes of leadership growth

BEPS is a framework designed to help leaders and managers broaden their impact. It maps leadership responsibilities across four axes:

Business
Understanding the business and the ecosystem your organization operates in. It includes developing a clear vision and understanding the reasons behind your solutions, products, features, and services.

Execution
Delivering work and achieving results.

People
Hiring, growing people, managing performance, and self improvement.

System
Understanding the system formed by people, organization, processes, and tools, and removing obstacles to great work.

The framework is simple on purpose. It creates a shared map to talk about where a leader invests time, what they neglect, and how they can grow.

Why BEPS exists

Alexis created BEPS while helping teams move from a function based organization to cross functional teams.

In that shift, managers started questioning their role. Many saw management as primarily about pushing execution, often through micromanagement. BEPS helped them turn around and see the full space of leadership: business clarity, people growth, and system improvement, not only delivery.

The common trap: execution everywhere

In Alexis’s experience, most leaders overinvest in Execution and underinvest in everything else.

Sometimes it looks productive: more tasks, more activity, more tracking, more pressure.

But without Business understanding, you can deliver the wrong thing. Without People focus, you burn out or lose talent. Without System work, you keep fighting the same friction again and again.

The framework makes this imbalance visible.

BEPS as a self improvement tool

The simplest way to use BEPS is personal reflection.

Look at your past week and ask: how much time did I spend on each axis?

Then do it again for several weeks. Patterns show up quickly. Not all weeks are the same, so Alexis recommends looking at a longer period, and recognizing that some activities have a cadence. For example, career conversations may happen monthly or quarterly, not weekly.

The point is not perfect balance every week. The point is awareness, then deliberate adjustment.

BEPS to assess a team or organization

BEPS also works at a team level.

If a team’s priorities are entirely framed as activity and delivery, the framework invites better questions:

• What do we know about our business and our ecosystem?
• How do we know we are building the right thing?
• How do we grow and retain people?
• What are we improving in the system to make delivery sustainable?

A healthy set of priorities touches all four axes. If everything sits in one axis, blind spots are likely.

Why System must be separate from Execution

Alexis explains why he does not merge System into Operations.

When System and Execution are mixed, people tend to default to Execution and neglect improvement. BEPS keeps System visible.

Alexis connects this to Deming’s idea: a bad system will beat good people every time.

How BEPS relates to other leadership models

BEPS is not meant to replace other frameworks. It is a map that helps leaders locate their growth edges.

Alexis mentions:

• Servant leadership, especially when managers shift away from micromanagement and toward enabling teams
• broader models like Strategy People Operations, where BEPS adds clarity by separating System from Execution
• habits and practices that can be used to grow along each axis

How the framework evolved

BEPS did not start as BEPS.

It started with three axes: Business, Execution, System.

The People axis came later.

Alexis shares this openly and explains why: early on, the teams he worked with associated people practices with bureaucracy and box ticking. He wanted first to shift how they saw the organization and the system. Then, when the time was right, People became the fourth axis.

The two qualities behind the framework

To use BEPS well, Alexis highlights two key qualities:

• curiosity: learning, listening, exploring beyond your default area
• humility: accepting you do not know everything, and being willing to adjust

Together, they create the conditions for real growth across all four axes.

OpenAI

Alexis, how would you describe your role to someone you just met?

Alexis

I am the Chief of Staff to the CTO at Red Hat, an enterprise software company with an open source development model.

OpenAI

What inspired you to develop the BEPS framework?

Alexis

I was really looking for something that would be able to help people get out of the corner of the room they were stuck in. I was trying to help teams. I was trying to mentor people and help them see the full spectrum of their role, and they seemed to be blocked somewhere, stuck somewhere in the corner of the room. So for me, the BEPS Framework represented an opportunity to help them turn around and see all the available space for them to grow themselves and grow their organization or teams.

OpenAI

How did you develop the four axes of the BEPS framework (Business, Execution, People, and System)?

Alexis

It all started with working with a team and especially the managers of the team we were trying to really transform the organization from an organization that was built by functions. So you had product management, engineering, quality assurance, and support. All those organizations should work together to develop a product, but they were a little bit fighting with each other, trying to justify their lack of results. We were trying to change the organization and build cross-functional teams. The managers were wondering what their roles would be because they saw their roles as really focused on one aspect of the work, not looking at all the other axis. So, showing them the four axes was a way to tell them: Oh, okay, there’s more to my role than just micromanaging the people already doing the work.

OpenAI

In your experience, which of the four axes do leaders and managers often neglect or underinvest in?

Alexis

It’s really interesting because I believe the axis people love to be involved in is Execution, and they usually neglect all the others. So. It’s not necessarily one of them. It’s more all of them except execution. And they focused on execution, but in the wrong way. I’ve seen people already focused on really doing their work but forgetting about everything else. I’ve seen managers focused on getting people to do work, do work, do work, do work, do work, do more activities, and more work, more work, more work, and really micromanaging the activities but not looking at the other axes and not looking at the impact of that work and missing the whole point.

OpenAI

How can the BEPS framework be used by leaders, either individual contributors or managers?

Alexis

I believe a framework is first of all a self-improvement tool. It’s really, looking at it and reflect on what are your contributions. One way to do it is simply to look at your past week and reflect on how much time did you spend on each axis. If you look at the definition of the axis, what do you know about the business axis for example? What do you know about the industry you are in? What do you know about your competitors? What do you know about your partners? What do you know about your own business? Do you know how your company is making money? Do you know what are the really important forces at play there? Ah and if you have all the answers. That’s great. You can use all your knowledge about that business axis to improve on the three other ones. If you know nothing, there’s probably an opportunity for you to develop and an opportunity for you and your team to grow, work with your peers on so on and so on. So, first of all, a self-reflection tool that can help you be more effective.

OpenAI

Can you give an example of a situation where the BEPS framework helped a leader or team to be more effective?

Alexis

That’s really interesting because, in many mentoring sessions I did, people were usually a little bit stuck on execution. They wanted to get to the next promotion. In a way, they wanted to get to the next level. But they were missing the point about how to get there. The BEPS framework was an interesting tool to show them: Okay, where are you already working on? What are you really working on? And for example, if I pick the system axis for example, what are you doing to really improve the processes and the way the organization is set up? A lot of time, the leaders put that responsibility on their manager. Asking them: Really? That’s only on your manager to improve the organization, the system, and the processes. You have no role in that, and of course, by asking a few questions, they realized that they could do many things. They were the ones dealing with that system on a day-to-day basis, providing the experience to people. So that was a way for them to realize that they could be more effective. We can go to the other axes and have the same kind of conversation. So. It’s really an opportunity for people to see other aspects of their roles, other facets of their roles.

OpenAI

How can the BEPS framework be used to assess the focus and priorities of a team or organization?

Alexis

Yeah, it’s definitely that!  Where do you put your focus on? How do you define your priorities, and if your priorities are to deliver a list of activities and to tick all the boxes I’m asking you? Okay, but what do you know about your business? How do you improve your knowledge about your business? How do you know you are right? How do you know you are wrong? How do you know you’re developing the right things to serve your customers or users of your product or services? How do you help your people grow? How do you keep them in the company? Keep them engaged. So, If you look at the priorities of a team or an organization, there should be something on all of the axes. If everything is focused on one, you’re probably missing the point. So that’s a great tool to look at how people define their focus and priorities and help them reconsider, then move things away from their default axis.

OpenAI

How do the four axes of the BEPS framework relate to other common frameworks or models of leadership and management, such as servant leadership or the seven habits of highly effective people?

Alexis

Oh yeah, that’s a really great question. I was looking for a framework that is simple enough to explain and will cover all aspects without being too simple. For example, I’ve heard many times that the only framework you need to have is Strategy People Organization. No, Strategy People Operations more exactly. But you’re missing the point there because strategy, I can say, okay, that’s my Business axis. People, Okay, that’s my people axis. But Operations is Execution and System; usually, when you mix the two, people focus on the execution. They forget about improving the system, and as William Edwards Deming said: a bad system will beat good people each time. So you really want to have all those axes together.

If I consider Servant Leadership, it’s a really interesting one because basically, the managers I was helping when we changed the organization from functions to cross-functional teams with people in charge end to end of delivering something, the managers were looking for a new role because they were not supposed to micro-manage people and focus only on execution. So their role was already moving to that servant leadership role, so we helped them see that, and we used some of the servant leadership principles to help them reconsider their role, and it really worked well. And, of course, the 7 habits are well-known for many people, so that’s also simple training to have simple things to do, which helped them realize that they were not really working on the other axes. So, we use the other frameworks to help people grow on the four axes. BEPS is a simple way to help people discover all the facets of their roles and responsibilities.

A bad system will beat a good person every time.

William Edwards Deming

OpenAI

Can you share any tips or best practices for how leaders and managers can effectively balance their time and focus across the four axes of the BEPS framework?

Alexis

The first one is knowing what we are doing—knowing what you are doing and where you invest your time. So if all your time is focused only on one axis or you’re imbalanced, that’s a problem. But how do you know that? You only know that when you can track where you invest your time during the week, and you can do that in several weeks to have a good balance. So, of course, not all the weeks are exactly the same. Let’s say you’re doing that for four weeks, and you look at all the different aspects of your work, and each Friday, you take some time and tag. You say, okay that was really business, that was more execution, that was more already working in the system, that was more already working on the people, and so on and so on. You look at how balanced or imbalanced you are, and maybe you reconsider how you will invest your time in the following week or following weeks. I believe that’s this way. Ah, you can really have a better picture or a better balance. Of course, the things that you will probably do, and let’s say every month or quarter, you need to do that for a longer period to have a good picture of your balance or imbalance. For the people aspect, growing people or managing their careers, that’s maybe not a conversation you have every week. That’s maybe a conversation you have monthly or even sometimes quarterly only, so there’s a cadence to find and a balance to find on a quarter. That would be a good setup.

OpenAI

How has the BEPS framework evolved or changed since you first developed it?

Alexis

The beginning of the framework, and I’m a little bit ashamed of that. To be honest, there were only three axes. That was Execution, of course, and there were the business and the system axes. I really wanted people to connect their knowledge of the business with the execution, with the day-to-day work. I was focused on improving the system so you could see what was missing. And that’s why I’m ashamed of it. There was just a small missing piece. I forgot that people were maybe an interesting aspect of that framework. So, of course, I added that later. But just as an excuse for that, to try to justify me a little bit. The people I was working with really saw all the HR things as really bureaucratic and just ticking-the-box exercises, and I didn’t want to fight that battle upfront as a starting point. I already wanted them to reconsider the organization and all the processes involved first. So we started with those three axes, and then we added the people axis when it was the right time to do it.

OpenAI

In your opinion, what are the key qualities or characteristics that a leader or manager should possess to be successful using the BEPS framework?

Alexis

There are probably two qualities or two characteristics. It’s curiosity and humidity. I believe the two are really needed. You need to be curious. You need to learn to listen to others, and you need humility to reconsider things and accept that you don’t know everything. You probably don’t know how wrong you are or how right you are. Until you really see all the perspectives of the people of an organization. So Yeah, I would say curiosity and humility are the key qualities.

OpenAI

Alexis, you are the Chief of Staff to the CTO at Red Hat. Thank you for joining me today.

Alexis

Thanks for having me!

Some conversations leave you with a simple feeling: clarity.

In this episode of Le Podcast on Emerging Leadership, I speak with Ashley Freeman, founder of Flourishing Work, about purpose, trust, and the kind of leadership that helps people grow.

Ashley’s story begins in medical research, where she experienced both great and not so great bosses. That contrast sparked a question that stayed with her: what makes good leaders good?

She went on to study leadership formally, but the real turning point came when she became a people leader for the first time. That is when she saw theory become practice, and practice create results: teams flourishing and business outcomes improving together. Within six months, she knew what she wanted to do for the rest of her life: lead, and help others learn how to lead.

Leadership is taking care of people

Ashley anchors her view of leadership in a definition she aligns with Simon Sinek: leadership is taking care of people.

The best leaders she experienced invested in her development and offered opportunities before she felt ready. One example stayed with her: as an administrative assistant, she was invited into meetings and projects far beyond her job description. Not by accident, but by intention. The goal was growth.

That is also why Ashley insists leadership is not about title. You don’t need direct reports to lead. You can take care of people in any role.

Continuous learning, made real

Ashley keeps learning in a very concrete way: she runs a book discussion club every Saturday morning.

It started early in the pandemic with two participants. It grew. It then found a steady rhythm with a core group of five to seven people who still meet regularly. The club is not only about reading. It becomes a space to analyze concepts, apply them to real life, and hold each other accountable.

As I told Ashley, one of the most surprising parts of a book club is realizing you did not read the same book as the others. People notice different things, keep different quotes, interpret ideas through their own experience. The discussion doubles the learning.

And there’s a second effect: when a group is counting on you, you actually read.

Personal brand and trust

Ashley also works with leaders on personal brand, and she frames it in a grounded way: everyone has a brand, whether they manage it or not.

Your brand is what you are known for. It’s the blank in the sentence: “What a ___ they are.”

The useful part is this: you can influence that blank through choices and touchpoints. Which meetings are you in. What topics you show up for. What people hear you speak about. How you introduce yourself. How others introduce you.

And yes, it connects to trust.

Ashley’s point is not about forcing sameness. It’s about clarity: when you are clear about what you value, you attract people who can trust you because they understand what you stand for. You can be very different and still share core values such as respect. That shared core makes trust easier.

Difference, conflict, and better work

Ashley is also a Myers-Briggs practitioner and uses personality work with teams. She finds it especially useful because teams constantly do two things: take in information and make decisions.

When teams are very similar, they move fast and enjoy each other, but share blind spots. When teams are diverse in preferences, they can experience conflict and misunderstanding. Ashley’s approach is to help each side see the value the other brings.

Efficiency without relationships creates friction over time.
Empathy without outcomes creates a different kind of frustration.

The work is not to make people identical. The work is to build appreciation for why the difference matters, and how the combination creates better results.

The book: finding your career purpose

Ashley’s upcoming book is called The Path to Your Career Purpose.

She shares two beliefs behind it:

1. everyone has a career purpose, a unique combination of passions and talents
2. everyone deserves good leaders when they reach their dream job

The book is about moving from where you are today toward work that is both practical and meaningful. Ashley is careful not to dismiss the need to pay bills and provide for family. Her point is that both can be true: stability and purpose.

And she connects it back to leadership: if we help people reach purposeful work, we also need environments where they can flourish once they get there.

Closing thought

Ashley’s definition stays with me: leadership is taking care of people.

Not as a slogan. As a practice: development, opportunity, clarity of values, continuous learning, and the courage to work with difference instead of avoiding it.

Listen to the episode here:

Here is the transcript of the episode

Alexis

Hey Ashley, how would you describe your role to someone you just met.

Ashley

I Am the owner and founder of Flourishing Work which is a company based here in the US that provides facilitation and coaching services to leaders of all walks of life.

Alexis

Okay, okay, but tell me more What was the pivotal moment that led you to fund flourishing work.

Ashley

Oh great question. So my background is in medical research supporting the efforts of academic medical researchers and through that experience, I like everyone had good and not-so-great bosses and it just gave me a real passion for wanting to understand what makes good leaders good and what makes those leaders that aren’t as great. You know that way as well. And so  I ended up getting an MBA in leadership to really understand and study this topic further and it. But it was really when I started managing a team for the first time when I became a people leader for the first time that everything completely changed for me so I was able to see that the lessons we were learning in the classroom and the theory could actually be put into practice and do some amazing things to help the team really flourish and the business outcomes to match that level of productivity and that was it that when I about six months into being a people leader I said this is what I want to do the rest of my life I not only want to lead but also, more importantly, share how to lead and not just lead people literally but also just interpersonal skills like navigating difficult conversations. For example, I just wanted the rest of my life to be able to coach and teach people on those topics and it’s the best job in the world.

Alexis

Okay, okay, okay so you are a leader yourself. You worked with a lot of leader. So among those you admire? What’s the one trait that stands out to you.

Ashley

When I think about what a leader is I align with one of my favorite authors Simon Sinek’s definition which is taking care of people. So the best leaders that I ever had who led me were very invested in my development and giving me opportunities really before I even felt ready for them and made sure that I was okay and that I understood what my role was and that’s it. It’s It’s just taking care of people and that’s why I say you know in my opinion you don’t have to have direct reports to be a leader you can lead anyone. That’s definitely what stands out is that they just take care of their people regardless of who they are.

Alexis

Okay, okay, so that’s that’s really important because the taking care of people is something that you described if I understand well as growing them helping them to grow and identifying opportunities that help they believe you be good for that. That’s something around those lines.

Ashley

Yes, the best boss that I ever had brought me into a lot of meetings and projects that were well outside my Immediate job description. I was actually just an administrative assistant at that time and I say just because you know those projects and those meetings had nothing to do with organizing his calendar and booking his travel and some of the things that I was directly responsible for and yet he brought me into these opportunities for the express purpose of helping me to grow and I will never forget that.

Alexis

So really an important! How did you decide to develop yourself as a leader what was the one action you have in mind that was really, the One action you take you’ve taken in the past to develop yourself?

Ashley

Oh, that’s a good question I think I have kind of a vague answer to that because for me I really wanted to understand the theory behind what I knew who a good leader was and who a not so good leader was but I didn’t understand why. And for me, I really wanted to understand the principles behind what made good leaders good and so for me and in my case, it really was a lot of studying so I read dozens of books I still to this day lead a book club every Saturday morning I never stop learning. I just wanted to have that knowledge so that I could then apply it because I didn’t know what to do without that knowledge.

Alexis

I need to I need to ask a follow-up question on one thing you just said a book club a book discussion club every Saturday morning tell me more. Why are you doing that and I guess it will inspire people to do the same.

Ashley

Absolutely, you don’t have to have any experience I certainly didn’t it started in the very beginning of the pandemic and we just picked a book and set out some dates and when it was over. We didn’t want to stop and ah you know the first one I only had 2 participants and then the group grew significantly so we had probably I would say too many maybe eleven or twelve something like that, which was a little bit difficult on the virtual mechanism to really have that space to have discussion. It was just a few too many people. So then we found our stride in the third book and hit around say five or seven people and that group. That core group has been meeting ever since then which as of today what is that about None ars and two months and so why do we do that I mean it’s you know every to know that we have this core group of friends and colleagues every week that we can. We can learn together but more than that we’re we’re not just reading a book. It. It certainly provides enrichment beyond what you might read in a book itself. But more than that we become like I said friends and colleagues and we can really guide each other through the process of growing together and. Implementing and understanding analyzing some of the concepts from the book into our everyday lives and even hold each other accountable to improve our lives and our work.

Alexis

I love it. I definitely love it reminded me you know that the one book discussion club I went to and I that was one of the first ones so I was really really taking notes about the book to be sure that I will really have something to discuss and really really precise in all what I was doing and then the first person starts to speak and I’m thinking to myself: “it seems we didn’t read the same book”. And it was really fascinating the things that were already standing out for that person were totally different from me and I was looking at my notes and I was thinking that’s quite crazy. That’s really incredible. Of course, there were some commonalities. There were some things that we had in common but there were a lot of things.

Ashley

Um, yes.

Alexis

So That thought that I did not even saw that or look at that in for me, it was not really as important so I learned a ton just doing that just showing what you think is important. Showing how you articulate those learnings and listening to the others and you say Wow That’s the next level! That’s something yes and you remember the book and the learnings probably the book crazy well in doing that. That’s also that’s what’s really cool.

Ashley

Um, it’s I totally agree. It’s an incredibly enriching experience. It’s almost doubling the learning and the content that you’re taking in and even more than that you know that these people are counting on you to read this book. So you read a lot more books than you actually might otherwise because you know that you have that dedicated time so can’t recommend it enough when I first started I thought they were for I thought book clubs were for kids but ah here I am None years later still doing it every week

Alexis

Ah, I read on ah on your website that you are helping people on their personal brand.

Can you tell me more about that or about that idea of personal brand.

Ashley

Absolutely you know we all have one. We all have a brand whether we’re managing it or not whether you’re a leader or not whether you work or not whatever you do you have some sort of brand which is sort of how you come across to other people. And what you’re known for if you will and the work that I do in that particular area is around managing one’s brand because you have a lot of control over how people think about you and it’s It’s such a gift to know that because it.

Ashley

It can seem like well we can’t you know control Other people’s thoughts or whatever. But when you think about it. You really do have so many opportunities and touch points and ah places where you put information about yourself or meetings you attend or so many opportunities when you really think about it. To showcase what you want to be known for which can bring all kinds of opportunities from either promotions or even just getting into the right groups of people whether it’s colleagues or in your personal or professional life who have the same values as you. Ah, so so one of the things As an example, you let’s say you’re in sales but you really want to be known more for marketing Well which meetings are you included on and not included on. Are you. Are you in the marketing meetings If not, you probably want to get in on them because people can’t read your mind. Um, you have to showcase what you want to be known for. Are you on the emails on that topic if not how can you be copied on them or you know how do people introduce you. Or what do they talk about when you’re not in the room if they say oh everybody was talking about you the other day. They just said what a blank you are well whatever the blank is that’s your brand and I just love that the blank doesn’t have to stay where it is. It can be whatever you want. Um, and there are so many opportunities to manage that.

Alexis

It’s interesting. Do you believe that when people know what their brand is it helped them to develop trust with people around them?

Ashley

I do and the reason why is because when we’re clear on what we stand for and what we value what we like and what we don’t like we naturally attract people who have those similar values and just to be clear I’m not advocating against diversity ah particularly of thought in this case because I think that that’s incredibly enriching. Um, but to develop. Trust you can you can have someone who’s very different than you but yet you both really value something like let’s say respect.

Ashley

And so you can you can develop a level of trust with them because you know that about each other whereas if you weren’t making that clear or you weren’t even sure yourself kind of what your brand was or what you care about then it’s pretty hard to find other people who share those same values.

Alexis

So showing who you are and being clear about the values that are important to you That’s building that trust, building that relationship at the at a deeper level in a way.

Ashley

Yes, yes, much deeper than you know we have the same job title or we live in the same neighborhood. It’s much more… It’s much deeper than that. It’s we we we care about the same things even though we may disagree on many other things. Ah, the core of who we are and what we care about is very similar and almost ironically I guess that actually opens up the opportunity to get to know people who are very different than you or who you might not naturally think that you would get along with or want to work with and yet you realize that. At the core you actually do value the same things and it becomes much easier to build trust that way.

Alexis

You mentioned diversity and the way you talk about the topic reminded me of a quote from Lincoln and I will paraphrase because I don’t remember it exactly but it’s something along those lines. It’s I don’t like that man much. I need to get to know him better.

Ashley

Yes I love that yes I want to jump up and clap I absolutely love that mentality I think you know I see it a lot in the personality work that I do I’m a Myers-briggs practitioner and there’s actually it’s not just something that I’m personally interested in the research shows that I’ve seen anyway that when you have that that completely different perspective on the same team working together your work product is better.

Alexis

Yeah I used MBTI before and other kinds of personality profile tools with teams and it’s really incredible to see that with some teams I worked with everybody was nearly on the same side of the of the disk or the quadrant or things like that and in other teamsm It was very very well-balanced.

Alexis

And you can see the result on what the team is able to do definitely. It’s quite incredible. You are using MBTI with teams.

Ashley

Oh yes, I think any personality assessment is very helpful because it’s it helps you understand yourself and how you’re different or similar to others and those insights are incredibly valuable. That particular one I find works best with teams because it looks at how clearly you prefer different ways of taking in information and making decisions about that information or coming to conclusions about it and if you think about those things taking in information and making decisions with that information is that not what teams do all the time and so it really sort of gets to the core..

Alexis

Um, yeah.

Ashley

You know where we get conflict in teams and to your point without fail when I have a team that is more similar of thought and personality type. They have the same blinds spots they get along great. They enjoy each other’s company and they get things done very quickly because they all agree on everything but they also have the same blind spots and so when you have the team that is less similar. They tend to come to me because they’re having either communication or conflict issues and when we break it down. It’s really a very touching moment really in this corporate setting where you wouldn’t expect it to be touching. But once we get all of the personalities sort of up on the screen and we start to just see the bigger picture of how we’re different and how we need each other. You just see the light bulb go on where it’s not just oh I don’t like that person because they’re not like me or they don’t think like me or they’re always so annoying you start to realize not only why they’re like that. But how much you need that different perspective to do better work. It’s really cool. It’s a very cool moment.

Alexis

So when you have those people in the room when you help people collaborate or work with each other I can imagine that it can become really intense and could even reveal conflict. How do you handle conflicts and how do you help the conversation move forward?

Ashley

Yeah, it. So from that perspective it really comes down to helping both sides see the value that the other one is bringing. So for example with in this particular context with Myers-briggs I’ll often see a dichotomy between those who are very efficient and effective versus those who are very people oriented and empathetic.Not to say that we can’t be both It’s just for whatever reason I am coaching clients tend to go into those buckets and so with the ones that are very efficient and effective. Once we start looking at the yes that’s incredibly important and what a gift that strength is because you know the rest of us would never get anything done without you. Thank you at the same Time. Um. Listening is really important and developing those relationships actually becomes more efficient and effective in the long term because those people that you’ve built relationships with and that you’ve listened to really carefully want to work with you and go out of their way to work with you and trust you to your point earlier. Um. You know, whereas on the other side. Maybe if they’re really focused on building relationships and listening to people and being empathetic and if that’s their strength then they may not get as much work done as their colleagues would like them to and then they get this perception of something you know back to our point about personal brand. Maybe it’s a brand of they I don’t know aren’t effective or so. Whatever the brand is and it’s in those conversations. Ah, where you start to see that that person is not just ineffective or hard driving or whatever the perception is it’s when you start to see what their strengths are and why you need them that it’s not necessarily that you just love working with them because they’re so different than you but you start to get an appreciation for why you need that other perspective to get the job done Better. It’s in the combination that we succeed not in the collective blind spots where it’s more comfortable and more fun to be.

Alexis

Yeah, that’s really exciting because that gives a sense of where you are going how do you interact with people. When you when you are coaching them or when you are facilitating conversations. So I am I really like the way you are framing all that you have something very exciting coming I need to speak about that so you worked on the book for the last two years something like that right.

Ashley

Yeah, one year and a half!

Alexis

And so the book is coming ready right now.

Ashley

Um, it is we are hoping to target a mid-July publication date.

Alexis

Excellent. So tell us more about the book.

Ashley

Absolutely And I’ll tell you in the frame of putting the pieces together that we’ve talked about and how it translates into why I care about this topic because it’s a little bit different than what we’ve been discussing and the way that pieces tied together is that the book is About. It’s called the path to your career purpose. So finding purpose in one’s work is something I’m very passionate about the way that connects to what we were talking about earlier in terms of leadership and coaching and facilitation is that. I have a couple of beliefs one is that I believe we all have a career purpose something and what I mean by that is we have a set of unique passions. Things that we’re very passionate about doing. And also a unique set of talents or skills that we have sort of our tools in our toolkit to carry out those passions in the world and that no 2 people have the same combination of those 2 things. So It’s very one of my passions is bring whatever that is for any individual on the planet out into the world because what I’ve seen in my work is that too many people are doing work that just provides for the family or pays the bills and that’s very important I’m not diminishing the importance of that. But what I’ve found in my journey is that you can do both. You can pay the bills you can provide for your family. You can you know build the lifestyle that you need and want to have and do work that is incredibly fulfilling and so that’s that’s what the book teaches the reader to do is go from wherever you are today to living a life of the fulfilling work that I would call you what you were meant to do

Ashley

And again back to the connection to what we were talking about so that was one belief the second belief I have is that we all deserve to have good leaders waiting for us when we get to whatever that dream job is and in the book I talk about you’ll have many dream jobs over the course of your career. They’re just kind of one point along the journey. But when you get there. Whatever that is whether that’s being a stay-at-home parent. That’s a job whether that’s working in a corporate setting whether that’s nonprofit whatever that is for you retirement. Whatever your job is um I just think that we all deserve to have good leaders there who will help bring out the best in us and so that’s how those pieces connect is that I’m bringing out what these unique gifts and passions are out of people through this book and then and then I’m teaching workshops and doing executive and leadership coaching to help people become those leaders and again I don’t define that as having direct reports just taking care of other people. So when you get to that dream job using the methodology in my book. You have the supportive environment that you need to flourish in your work which is the name of my company.

Alexis

I Love it. So the okay the book is on my reading list. That’s absolutely critical so you convinced me I Love the energy I Love the passion about that and I understand way better now where you are saying a leader is someone who takes care of people I Love it.

Alexis

Thank you very much Ashley for joining the podcast today.

Ashley

Absolutely, it’s been my pleasure.