Category: Le Podcast

In the latest episode of Le Podcast on Emerging Leadership, I had the pleasure of hosting Noah Max, a visionary in the realm of classical music. Noah, a composer and conductor, shares his profound insights on leadership within the creative arts.

🔹 Creative Leadership: Noah describes his role as a composer akin to being a thought leader, constantly striving to innovate and push the boundaries of classical music.

🔹 Challenges in Classical Music: He highlights the difficulties in bridging the gap between classical music and wider audiences, emphasizing the need to communicate its relevance and vitality in people’s lives.

🔹 The Power of Art: Noah passionately speaks about the personal and almost therapeutic impact of engaging with the arts, beyond intellectual understanding.

🔹 Leadership in Practice: Sharing his experience with the opera “The Child in the Striped Pyjamas,” Noah reflects on the importance of team synergy and the challenges of leading a creative project.

🔹 The Conductor’s Role: He delves into the unique dynamics of conducting, where a blend of vision, listening, and collaboration is key to creating a harmonious performance.

🔹 Immersive Leadership Workshops: Noah discusses his innovative workshops that allow individuals to experience the role of a conductor, emphasizing self-discovery and personal growth.

🔹 Personal Development: He stresses the importance of continually challenging oneself to grow as a leader, drawing parallels to physical training.

🔹 Mentorship and Inspiration: Noah shares his experiences with mentorship, both as a mentee and a mentor, highlighting the reciprocal nature of these relationships.

🔹 Future Projects: Looking ahead, Noah is excited about his upcoming compositions, including his first symphony.

🔹 Advice for Leaders: He advises emerging leaders to tune out the noise and listen to themselves, making decisions based on what truly matters to them.

Tune in this enlightening conversation with Noah Max, where music and leadership intertwine to create a symphony of insights. Tune in to this episode to be inspired, regardless of your field!

Listen now and let the music of leadership elevate your day! 🎧

References:

• Website (& newsletter signup): https://www.noahmax.net/

• The Child in a Stripped Pyjamas: https://linktr.ee/stripedpyjamas
• Latest Album: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_llt5MCJkJMI9SETVugyk22509cGtf7Xv4
• Website (& newsletter signup): www.noahmax.net
• SoundCloud: https://soundcloud.com/noahmax
• Vimeo: https://vimeo.com/noahmax
• YouTube – Noah Max: https://www.youtube.com/@noahmax6190
• YouTube – Echo Ensemble: https://www.youtube.com/@EchoEnsemble
• Publisher: https://ump.co.uk/composer/noah-max/
• A Child In Striped Pyjamas: https://linktr.ee/stripedpyjamas
• Noah recommended to listen
• Walton “Belshazzar’s Feast” – Andrew Davis conducts
• TÁR is the movie with Cate Blanchett, Noah mentioned
  TÁR – Official Trailer [HD] – In Select Theaters October 7
• Whiplash TRAILER 1 (2014) – J.K. Simmons, Miles Teller Movie HD
• Endymion Ensemble: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMkPiXbcKghBQ0jVuKNIxqQ

Transcript:

Alexis: Today, we have a truly enchanting episode lined up for you. Noah Max masterfully blends the art of music with the essence of leadership. He’s a creative artist, not only a composer and a conductor he’s an innovator in the world of classical music.

Alexis: Welcome to Le Podcast on Emerging Leadership, Noah. How do you typically introduce yourself to someone you just met? 

Noah: Well, it’s lovely to see you, Alexis. Thanks for having me on the podcast. I suppose I would go in with creative artist. Because that’s something everyone can relate to immediately and understand. I work specifically in the field of music. I do a number of different things within the field of music, including conducting, which I know we’re going to speak about later on.

But primarily, at heart, I’m a composer, which means I write music. And that sometimes leaves people a little bit nonplussed, because they’re not quite sure what [00:01:00] it means to create music from scratch, or You know for what context are you creating music? What does your life look like if you’re getting out of bed every morning and what writing music?

I mean, how does it work? So the way I would describe it is that I’m attempting to imagine sounds that nobody’s heard before and then notate those sounds either for existing instruments, combinations of instruments, or perhaps even inventing an instrument physically or electronically which doesn’t yet exist, in such a way, so notating it in such a way that Performers could then realize that vision for an audience.

And often for me, that’s within the context of classical music in the concert hall. Sometimes it will be for television, film, something of that description.

Alexis: Okay, that’s fantastic. So now I guess people are wondering, are, are we on a [00:02:00] podcast about leadership? And I’d say, yes, we are. And I will ask a question about how do you define leadership in that context of composing and conducting? And what are some of those unique challenges you face as a leader?

in the musical world. 

Noah: I suppose there’s two ways that you can look at a question like that. And one of them is intensely creative and one of them is intensely practical. So from the perspective of composing, I suppose it’s sort of like being a thought leader or a philosopher in that you’re trying to move things forward.

You don’t simply want to repeat things that have already been done although there’s nothing inherently wrong with that but you want to bring something original and valuable to the table, which is going to in some way move the dialogue forward during the course of your creative lifetime. And then there’s the more practical side, which I suppose Through my composing [00:03:00] through my conducting, excuse me, and my other activities one gets a little bit closer to this, which is the fact that there’s a lot of worry in the classical music world that we are in a sort of declining landscape.

It’s certainly a very confusing landscape at the moment. I think there has been a great failure in the world of classical music to communicate itself to the wider world and to build bridges with the wider world. To show people who may feel no great connection in their life with classical music, contemporary classical music, romantic classical music, baroque or renaissance music it’s felt to communicate the ways in which that can be an important, an incredibly vital and, and life giving and sustaining force in, in people’s lives. 

And so, you know, having failed to communicate that, no wonder people don’t necessarily feel as connected to it as maybe they could or should. And so, part of my mission in all the different things that I do is to connect people [00:04:00] with the arts in any which way, no matter what they spend their life.

doing. I would like them to have an inroad so that they can, you know, feel the beauty and the sometimes overwhelming power of these mediums in their own life.

Alexis: Wow, that’s beautiful. Ah, that’s beautiful. And I hope that will trigger the interest of people to have a taste at it without the intellectual knowledge that is coming to that. I’ve, I’ve observed times and times that people don’t Listen, or don’t watch paintings or look at it because they don’t have the knowledge that is going with it.

And I’m saying that’s, that’s like tasting food. You, you don’t necessarily have all the knowledge behind it, but you can taste it and maybe you like it. Maybe you don’t, or that could be a drink, that could be food, and that could be music, or that could be painting. Maybe just have a look at it and listen to what is happening inside [00:05:00] yourself.

That would be. Maybe your first time, don’t you think? 

Noah: Oh, absolutely. And the wonderful thing with these things is that there’s no incorrect response. Including, you know, perhaps a work of art which everyone says is a great piece of genius leaves you feeling cold. And, you know, that’s fine. It’s an intensely personal thing. I think to just sit and observe a work of art or to sit in a concert hall, which feels incredibly formal and sometimes quite rigid.

And to experience a work of music over a period of time. It’s an incredibly intense experience and it’s a beautiful experience, but beauty can be terrifying. particularly if you’re not used to it, if you’re not accustomed to it immersing yourself in that beauty can be a terrifying experience, and that’s one of the reasons I’d encourage everyone to do it.

I think that’s part of the vital nature of it. But you also mentioned the intellect there, Alexis, so just to pick up on that for a minute. Often I [00:06:00] find we over intellectualize, actually, the problems in our lives, whereas accessing the creative arts is to do with intuition and the realm which is beyond the intellectual and beyond the statistical and the scientific and the measurable, although all those do come to play in their own.

special, interesting ways. But so much of what’s important is not that. And actually, I think this is the sense in which this is a life giving force. So you compared the analogy with food and in some sense that’s correct, except that we all have to eat three times a day or thereabouts in order to sustain ourselves.

So food is a life giving force in a physical sense. We need the calories in order to sustain our lives. Just like we need a roof over our heads. Et cetera, et cetera. But You might say, well, why do I need painting in my life? Why do I need theatre in my life? Why do I need cinema, for that matter, in my life?

it gives you something which is completely personal to you and which is [00:07:00] not quantifiable, no matter whether you think you’re a creative person or not. And I used to be incredibly naive and evangelical about this. I felt that everybody was creative. And I no longer think that’s True.

And I think a lot of people actually feel tremendous pressure that maybe they should be creative and actually it’s not part of their nature to produce things from scratch. And that’s completely fine. a work of art can feel as though it’s judging you, but there should be nothing judgmental about the process of appreciating art.

And I would like everybody to have their own way in, perhaps to step out of the intellect. And this is something I continually remind myself that I need to do. as well, because it’s not always the best way to solve a problem.

Alexis: I love it! Thank you for sharing that. Can you share an experience where your leadership skills were put to the test. 

Noah: Well, the obvious one which comes to mind, and there might be some listeners who are aware of this, as I know you are I’ve spent the last five [00:08:00] years bringing an operatic adaptation of John Boyne’s novel, The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas. And you know this because you were at one of the instrumental rehearsals actually in London back in early January.

Can’t believe it’s so long ago already. But every single part of that process was a struggle. Writing the music was a struggle. Doing the research in order to take the entire project with the requisite seriousness was a struggle. Digging into my own family history and my connection with the topic matter was an immense.

Uphill climb spiritually and the logistics of putting on the performance, which we did pretty much single handedly myself and the Echo Ensemble, which is my orchestra, which sort of morphed into an opera production company for that project. And everything went wrong, which could possibly have gone wrong on ways to, I mean, I would.

We could just [00:09:00] sit here for an hour talking about the litany of things which went wrong and I was working all hours in a very unhealthy way. So it’s not something I would hold up as a model of good practice per se. And it’s certainly not an experience I would like to repeat. But it was in its own way, the best of times.

And the reason for that was because of the wonderful synergy in the team. And the only thing which functioned properly on that whole project. Was my team and I told them that and I even with all the other things vying for my attention. I made my priority to Nurture the synergy of that team and fortunately that turned out to be a good investment of resources.

Alexis: Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s very interesting what you’re saying about the unhealthy way and all the things going wrong. I was, I was listening to the serial entrepreneur, who created several companies not all of them were [00:10:00] successful. In reality a few of them were successful and a lot were small disaster and bigger disasters.

 and he was reflecting on that and he was saying, oh, you, read on LinkedIn and you believe all those people are very highly successful and highly driven and they are really good at all what they are doing and, and everything is going well for them. in reality everything is going wrong every day. And you just need to handle it. And sometimes you do it well, and sometimes you learn something in the process of, in your experience, and sometimes you don’t. And it’s even getting worse. So, there’s just a few things that matter, and that That’s how you are doing that, not all by yourself, but building a support team, you just mentored on that.

That was your team. So what happened with that team? What, what is that team and how it works [00:11:00] for you to work with the team? 

Noah: Well, there are certain differences, I suppose in that making music is a process which is incredibly emotionally vulnerable. and very intimate and you have to be sharing of yourself whenever you’re doing it. I was conducting this project as well. So it was my own music that I was conducting with a team that I had hand picked.

So these were all musicians I deeply admired and. respected and enjoyed working with, but when you’re working on topic matter, that’s as dark as that for a sustained period of time, it’s just a great challenge. And the endurance is a challenge. I mean, on a personal level, what I kept reminding myself whenever I was fatiguing, which was often was It’s never going to get better than this.

So just enjoy every minute, which seems counterintuitive again, given the topic matter, but, [00:12:00] but it was necessary to get through it. And actually on the team level, I think that was reflected too, because I wanted to make sure that there was enough room for. levity and a bit of risque gallows humor, you know, because you can’t just be heavy and serious all the time.

And opera making is fun. It should be fun. It’s very interesting to me what you’re saying about the, you know, the, the, the front facing is, is always incredibly. Successful. And then, you know, generally the failures are kept private. I mean, there was just such a huge litany of failures and false starts on the road to this project.

And without the support of, I mean, the whole team, but particularly certain individuals who were attached to it for, you know, right from the start years earlier. I don’t know whether I would have pushed through all of those, but it’s just interesting as well, when you zoom out. You know, if you read the daily news feed, it’s always bad news because bad news happens in the short term.

I do, I don’t do any social media. I deleted all my social media. I do a newsletter once a month and when you zoom out And you only [00:13:00] do your news once a month, generally the news is more positive over the mid and the long term. Just an interesting thing to, keep in mind. I mean, it’s wonderful that with pyjamas, I think, you know, given that I’d never put so much energy and effort into anything in my life.

And to see it rewarded and to see my team rewarded through the reviews that we got and the recognition that the project got was, was absolutely wonderful. But that’s not an accurate reflection of what was going on under the surface. You know, the duck’s legs were, were very much tangled in the weeds there.

Alexis: you mentioned the rehearsal I was amazed of a lot of different things, but things that I still have in mind, there were the composer and the conductor. And so that was your own music. But you were already comfortable with the musician to challenge a little bit the composer or to to make fun of the composer [00:14:00] in some ways about the music itself.

And I thought it was really funny to say they are, and you are making fun of yourself or Separating yourself from the composer, from the music, because now we are trying to to play the music. it’s two different times. And I was looking at that, it was really interesting.

And there was sometimes the, the explanation of the music also. What is happening? That to give the context of, okay, we are, we are starting at that particular measure and you give the context about what is going on and you you explain what is going on what you would like to hear and and there’s a dialogue with the the musician and i i saw them taking notes on the on the score about what was going on and and you give them feedback And they ask something and I was that dialogue was fantastic in a way in my mind the music is on the score.

You just play [00:15:00] it and you’re done and that’s absolutely not what is happening Which was amazing to me Do you have some some reflection about what is going on when you are doing the rehearsal with the team? 

Noah: Well, that situation was very specific. And I think being a composer who conducts creates a very specific. Scenario whereby you can offer certain insights. into the process of how something’s been created and what the thought process was behind it. Whereas if it’s somebody else’s music, you’re not necessarily in a position to do that.

Although even that only goes so far, interestingly. I often feel as British composer William Walton must have felt, there’s a possibly apocryphal story of a occasion when he was conducting his own great oratorio, huge orchestra and choir called Belshazzar’s Feast. Tremendous piece. I recommend everybody who is listening to this should go and find it on YouTube, but he was conducting a performance of it and somebody asked him a very [00:16:00] specific question of, oh, you know, you wrote this marking in this bar.

What did you mean? And he said, well, I’ve got no idea. I wrote it 20 years ago.

Not the response you’d expect or maybe hope for, but by the time we were performing that I had written the piece a year and a half ago in a frenzy of creative activity. And so much of the creative process is a mystery, even to the creator. So there were situations where people were saying, you know, what did you mean by this?

It’s like, well, you know, what did I mean then? What do I? think I might want now, and you know, are they the same thing? Possibly not, and neither of them might be right. So it’s tricky, but you know, under more normal circumstances, I, I mean, see with conducting, there are no normal circumstances. It’s an extraordinarily strange situation you find yourself in.

[00:17:00] Just to give people an idea, just the slightest idea if you’re an international conductor, say, and you are guest conducting with a series of symphony orchestras around the world, you’ll be traveling one week, one place, one week, another place, one week, another place, maybe you’ve never gone to these places before, maybe you don’t speak.

the languages in any of them, and you’re confronted with 80 people who you’ve never met before, and you’re all performing music in three days time that none of you have ever performed before, and somehow you’ve got to create a performance that is going to be spiritually valuable to the 5, 000 people who are paying to see it.

Or however many people it is. So it comes with extraordinary pressure, and it’s an extraordinarily aspirational job. There’s so much of it which is mysterious. It’s actually the mysterious elements of it which I really love. And when I’m introducing people who have no idea about conducting to it, as you know, I know you want to talk about these workshops a little bit [00:18:00] later on I think those mysterious and magical elements are the ones which are worth paying the greatest attention to, in a way.

But there is that magical synergy between the group, almost like a murmuration of birds. You know, how they know when the next one’s going to turn in that direction. It’s, it’s all just, you know, it shouldn’t be possible. It really shouldn’t be possible. According to science, it shouldn’t be possible for a string player to play their instrument in tune.

And yet everyone does. I mean, to get your finger within a nanomillimeter of whatever it is, it shouldn’t be physically possible. So, you know, what we’re doing here is the impossible. That’s what we’re talking about. And I mean that literally, not figuratively.

Alexis: and that and that’s a that’s a very interesting thing and I would like to go back to What is the level of freedom for the musicians to express themselves, express themselves when they are playing that music? [00:19:00] I thought there was a dialogue between the conductor and the musician. And so that means they have a degree of freedom in that process, individually and together.

So there’s something going on there, I believe. 

Noah: Yes, I think It’s very interesting because I think a group is looking to, the leader for the vision of the whole because everybody has their part to play in the whole. So you need to present a vision of the whole but not in a way that feels dictatorial. It’s got to start with listening and assessing what’s the player’s needs are as specialists.

You are essentially a generalist as a conductor and you are there to help a group of specialists achieve something together, which perhaps they hadn’t even dreamed of possible was possible when they were just individuals in their practice room or, or, you know, whatever it was [00:20:00] sometimes an individual will have an idea which is incredibly valuable.

Sometimes the hive mind will just come out with something which, you know, you never would have thought of. Much better than anything you could have thought of. And so rather than feeling as though you’ve got to impose your vision, I think there’s always got to be a dialogue between the two. And if you are trying to convince people to do something your way then first of all, you really need to be sure about it.

But also, you know, just telling people to do it isn’t enough. You sort of need to coax them to, to sort of, to try it and explore it and, and to maybe feel as though they thought of it themselves. And there’s a little bit of You know, magic about that as well. Maybe misdirection, but

Alexis: I love that because now I can see the parallel with the world of business and all the teams that needs or so the to assemble the creativity of specialists to accomplish something bigger. [00:21:00] and speaking of that, you offer. Immersive sessions with musicians for people to understand what happens behind the scenes.

And so what inspired you to start those sessions? 

Noah: that’s right. It’s an incredibly exciting journey, sort of honing these sessions into what they are now. I think I was inspired by the figure of the conductor itself, which looms large over the popular culture in a very strange way, because nobody really knows how it works. Conducting. Sort of this person who stands up on a podium and waves a magic wand, and there is that image there, that archetype of the magician, the wise old sage, and you’re sort of harnessing that power.

And that’s been an incredibly powerful icon, I mean all these films coming out now, there’s a film just coming out very soon about Leonard Bernstein who was a big force in the culture. There was a film with Cate Blanchett, the name of which I forget. [00:22:00] And you know, there was a film about 10 years ago now called Whiplash, which is an extraordinary movie with a great performance from J.

K. Simmons in that. So people sort of have these preformed ideas of what a conductor might be. What I’m very interested in is the fact that when one steps onto the conducting podium, your personality transforms. this is as true of me as it is of anyone else, and it’s as true of as it is of non musicians.

that self transformation can be, I mean, it’s incredibly volatile. But I think it can be a great vehicle for self discovery and for self actualization. And in that space where you can no longer verbalize, going back to this thing of intellectualizing, you know, when you’re confronted with a bunch of specialists who do something that you know, nothing about.

And all you can do is wave your arms at them and communicate yourself physically. Suddenly you strip away all the nonsense and you’ve got a space in which there’s this [00:23:00] embodied learning experience. And you can, oh, you can discover things through this, which I promise you, you could not discover any other way, given years and endless streams of cash.

It’s a unique experience and I recommend it to everyone. So this is part of my mission to sort of coax everyone into trying it, I suppose, and to see what it can offer them.

Alexis: you describe a little bit how it works? 

What people are supposed to be doing? 

Noah: So we have an ensemble and we have some music and the participants and I will do a little crash course on how you hold the stick, what the basic moves are, just get a little bit comfortable with that. And then we throw people in the deep end and we invite you up to stand in front of the group and We see what happens and whatever your starting point is, we work from there and it’s quite extraordinary because I’ve never [00:24:00] had a situation where we’re unable to make progress.

I mean, even somebody who’s never listened to a piece of classical music in their life. Sometimes people who have that actually have no foreknowledge. Often end up being the best at it, strangely. But you can make a lot of progress. And once you sort of got used to the very strange sensory overload, all these different things coming at you at once things start happening.

It’s very hard to verbalize. You know, I struggle to verbalize it. All I do in my situation as sort of mentor is I just try and again, just sort of lead people along and see if I can get them to notice the sensations within themselves and how they can modify what they’re doing to get a better more vibrant response from the musicians.

And we get the musicians feedback as well, which is It’s incredibly exciting because obviously they’ve played for many, many conductors. And I’ve heard behind closed doors from some of my players that actually some of the conducting they witness in these sessions is better than [00:25:00] some of the conducting they witness in their professional lives as performers.

So you’d be surprised at what you’re capable of, man. I mean, I don’t know. You should.

Alexis: really love that idea that people who know nothing about it able to feel it in a way. So, basically Listen to what is going on in themselves. Listen to what is the feedback they have from the team and adjust their behavior so that the result will be different. And basically that’s what we are trying to tell leaders in other fields to really understand.

How they should.

adjust what they are doing to have a different response. And that’s not, that’s not changing the others, that’s changing yourself. and look at what is going on, what is really going on. And it’s it’s very interesting that the parallel is so obvious. I am, and I’m now really excited and I would like to try that. 

Noah: [00:26:00] You should.

Alexis: When the people are going through that immersive experience what do you believe they take away from that? 

Noah: they won’t necessarily take away What they want, but I believe they will take away what they need. And it may not be something that they’re capable of verbalizing at the time. It will start off as a felt difference in the way they operate. And then maybe when you step away from that slightly remarkable experience and go back to your life, which is also remarkable.

I mean, everyone’s life is remarkable in its own way, but you know, it’s, it’s also repetitive and it’s the world that you know. You take the treasure back from the cave into the world that you know, and you see if there’s things you can do, optimize, streamline in order that you can find that sensation again you find out what [00:27:00] that embodied knowledge means to you.

I’m hesitant to say too much because. I don’t want people to come along thinking that they should. I mean, you might come to the session thing. Oh, I really just want to increase my confidence in front of a crowd. And, and, you know, my, my presentation skills, it could be something as simple as that, but that’s not, I mean, you’ll get that.

Don’t get me wrong. You will get that. And then some, but. it goes much deeper. There’s almost something therapeutic about it. And I’m very interested in the depth psychologists and their writings. And I’ve also, because of my, my Viennese heritage, my ancestors escaped from Vienna at the same time as the Freuds. 

And they were very much in that scene, which was filled with you know, these great thinkers and artists and stuff. So I, I’m very interested in all that literature and all that thought. You know, I’m hesitant to say too much because I think it’s something deep I don’t want people to have too many preconceptions.

Alexis: But I love it. I believe that we discussed [00:28:00] enough so that people can understand that that’s an experience that you need to live and something will happen. And I, I love what you are saying about, that’s not necessarily what you want, but that’s what you need. And that’s a kind of Nanny McPhee experience.

So, sorry, 

Noah: it’s funny you say that, because I, I often think of the Nanny McPhee thing, that when you, you want me, but you, sorry, you need me, but you don’t want me, I have to stay. Is this right? And when you want me, but you no longer need me, I have to go. It’s one of the tragic truths of, of life, I think.

Alexis: that’s, that’s a, that’s a very interesting, interesting one. So, how do you continue to, to grow and develop yourself as a leader? 

Noah: Well, you have to do things which are going to stress you and stretch you regularly. Anybody who goes to the gym knows this. It’s, you know, relaxation is no good, and pure tension is no good. It’s a [00:29:00] cycle of tension and relaxation which creates hypertrophy. And I think the same is true in terms of the challenges one needs to take on.

So I’ve recently completed this huge challenge and I spent some time after that feeling slightly listless with a big striped pajamas shaped hole in my life. But now I’ve got myriad new challenges which are really stretching me in completely unexpected and completely different directions. So I’m flexing muscles that I hadn’t used before and I hadn’t maybe even known were there.

And I think that’s, that’s crucial. 

Alexis: Excellent. I, I, I love the stress and stretch and the part with the, the gym that will really help to, to understand that. Do you have any mentors or role models who have influenced you? 

Noah: Well, I, I did. In some sense I still do. But I had a mentor called [00:30:00] John Whitfield, who was a bassoonist and a conductor. He founded his own ensemble, just as I have my echo ensemble. He founded Endymion Ensemble, which was a jewel in the crown of British chamber music making in the 80s if anyone’s interested in Endymion, again, you can find their recordings on Spotify, YouTube tremendous stuff to be found there.

I met John in the last years of his life. He was very unwell. He died quite young. He was in his mid sixties when he died. He’d had health problems throughout his life, but he was a tremendous mentor and support to me. We met completely by chance at a concert. So, go to concerts, you never know who you’ll meet. it’s strange to me now, because it’s been several years since he passed away. And Stripe Pyjamas originally was his idea, actually, we, we, it came up in a conversation that we had. he would have loved to have seen it realised. And, and that made [00:31:00] me think, you know, that he was investing all this time and energy in me, knowing that he wouldn’t live to see me fulfil my potential.

But it was what he wanted to do, and actually I’m convinced that, I mean, I, I supported him with his endeavours as well, and those were life giving for him in his state. But the ability to engage with. musicians and players to arrange and orchestrate music, which he’d always loved doing. And he did some of his best work in those last few years of his life.

So he was an incredibly inspiring man, a difficult man as well. And I think he wanted me to avoid some of the pitfalls that he felt he’d fallen into. when he was my age, particularly regarding the vicissitudes of a creative lifestyle, which maybe are more volatile than if one were working in a different, slightly more stable field.

Alexis: Do you have other people now? that are that are inspiring [00:32:00] you? And the second question that is coming just after is are you are you mentoring other people yourself? 

Noah: Hmm. Well, there are plenty of people I find inspiring. I find you inspiring, Alexis. But in terms of mentorship, you know, John was my mentor and I was very, very fortunate. Nowadays, I keep my own counsel and I do my own thing. So life has changed in that regard over the last few years. And yes, I do try my best to be a support to my own colleagues and to my students of whom I have a few and they’re tremendously bright and, you know, many of them conductors, some of them composers.

And so I try to just nudge them in the direction of interesting things. in order that they might shape themselves, which I think is what John did for me. And I mean, also [00:33:00] in funny sort of ways, I was a mentor to John as well, in that I encouraged him to remain musically active despite his ill health. I have a lot of friends of mine who are of older generations as well, and I occasionally try to provoke them and poke them into some kind of creative activity, which I think might be good for them and usually I’m right, so.

Alexis: Yeah, I love it. I love it. So, What are some upcoming projects you’re excited about? 

Noah: Oh, well, it’s mostly writing at the moment. I’m very deeply involved in writing projects. I’m currently writing my first symphony, which is a huge undertaking, very, very different from the first opera. And that is a commission for the London Mozart players, which is a chamber orchestra here in London, tremendous group, really lovely, lovely people as well, which is a wonderful thing.

I feel very fortunate to be doing that. And that will be premiered [00:34:00] in the summer as the opening concert of the Thaxted Festival, which was the birthplace of a composer called Gustav Holst. So if you’re new to classical music, you’re getting loads of names here today. Gustav Holst is one to stick into your browser, particularly because next year will be 150 years since he was born.

So it’s sort of commemorating that happy occasion, that milestone. So, so it’s all, it’s a great honor to be doing that. And I’ve got a number of Very exciting composing projects, which are lined up for the new year as well. So it’s going to be busy for the next bit. But at some stage, I look forward to getting back to some, some carving, some conducting as well.

Alexis: Love it! there will be a lot of references to add to the companion blog post And, and finally do you have any advice for emerging leaders, regardless of their 

Noah: See, I’m always just hyper aware of how specific my field is and in giving general advice. I never want to, you know, I’m just so [00:35:00] conscious of the fact that. Music can feel like an alien world, so could I really give advice more, more generally? Well, you know, maybe, maybe I can. At the risk of sounding blithe and clichéd, I think you’ve really got to learn to tune out the noise and listen to yourself. It’s very easy to expend a lot of energy on stuff that you do not care about and which you’re not really interested in pursuing for whatever reason. And there is so much static and noise out there now.

So learning how to tune your radio set so that you can figure out a good principle on which to make decisions so that you know what it is you want to do and where it is you want to go. I think, you know, whatever kind of entrepreneur you might be. That’s useful because you could [00:36:00] invest a huge amount of your time, energy, money, other people’s money into creating something that you don’t really believe in.

And I know people who’ve done that and, you know, they always learn from it, but never ends well. if you can avoid it, then perhaps that’s a good thing too.

Alexis: that’s beautiful. love it. I will add a few links about where the people can find your work, follow your work and get in touch with you. And I’m very thankful for having you join the podcast today. So thank you very much, Noah. 

Noah: Oh, well, Alexis, it’s been a pleasure. Thank you for having me, and if anybody wants to know more about what I do, they can go to www. noahmax. net. That’s n o a h m a x dot net. That has my music, my paintings as well and various other things. It has a place where you can get in touch. You can also find my music on YouTube, on Vimeo, on [00:37:00] SoundCloud, and you can also, through the website, you can sign up to my monthly newsletter that I mentioned earlier.

And that’s just a monthly burst of creative energy from my part of the world. And you can find out what I’m doing. And if you want to come be a groupie then you can find out where I’m performing, what’s going on. And nine times out of 10, I will be there. So if you want to say hello, that is also really the best way to do it.

Alexis: Thank you very much, Noah. 

Noah: Thanks. Bye.

In our latest episode of Le Podcast on Emerging Leadership, I am honored to feature Ioanna Mantzouridou, Co-founder & CEO of Dextego. Join us as we delve into Ioanna’s inspiring journey from her roots in HR to leading an innovative AI coaching platform.

Key Highlights of the Episode:

1. Journey to Dextego: Ioanna shares her transition from considering a PhD in organizational psychology to spearheading an AI-driven talent development platform.
2. Dextego’s Mission: Learn about her vision for reducing talent attrition through personalized soft skills training and the role of AI in democratizing leadership development.
3. Overcoming Remote Work Challenges: Insights into the challenges of developing talent in remote settings, especially during the COVID era.
4. Empathy in Leadership: Discover Ioanna’s emphasis on empathy, discipline, and a continuous learning mindset when building her team.
5. Addressing CEO Challenges: Ioanna discusses balancing fundraising, sales, and maintaining vision in the early stages of a startup.
6. Innovation Culture: How employee-driven innovation and aligning with company strategy can revolutionize workplaces.
7. Success Metrics at Dextego: The focus on top talent retention and the transformative impact of personalized development tools.
8. AI Tailoring for Career Stages: Exploring how Dextego’s AI coach adapts to individual skill levels and career phases.
9. Ioanna’s Leadership Evolution: Her personal growth since starting Dextego and embracing ambiguity and vulnerability.
10. Advice to Her Younger Self: Ioanna reflects on the virtues of patience and enjoying the journey.
11. Upcoming Events: Get a sneak peek into Dextego’s future events, including LinkedIn Audio and LinkedIn Live sessions, and the exclusive ‘Dextagon’ event for HR leaders.

Don’t miss this episode if you’re interested in how AI is transforming leadership and talent development. Tune in to gain invaluable insights from a visionary leader in the tech world.

References

• https://www.linkedin.com/in/joannemantzouridou/
• https://dextego.com/

Transcript

Alexis: [00:00:00] Welcome to Le Podcast on Emerging Leadership. I’m your host, Alexis Monville. Today, we are thrilled to bring you insights from a distinguished guest whose dedication to enhancing leadership through technology sets her apart. Ioana Mantzouridou, a community builder, talent development strategist, and fervent advocate for applied AI, join us to share her groundbreaking journey. As the co-founder and CEO of Dextego Ioana is pioneering and AI coaching platform dedicated to revolutionizing talent development. Johanna, how do you introduce yourself to someone you just met?

Ioanna: Awesome. That’s a great question. So I would say that my name is Ioana, I’m the co founder and CEO of Dextego, an AI coaching platform for reducing top talent attrition by half. I’m from Greece, so I’ve been living in the U. S. for seven years now, [00:01:00] and really focused on leveraging technology to push human capital further.

That’s my quick intro.

Alexis: Excellent, I love it. What inspired you to start Dextego?

Ioanna: So, my background is in HR I actually thought I was going to pursue my PhD for a second on organizational psychology, but then I ended up working in startups. I was the VP of people and chief of staff at the, at the end of another B2B SaaS startup here in New York. And I quickly realized, you know, the importance of developing talent and also the challenges.

that come with this development when it is in a remote setting, because especially during COVID, you know, everyone started working from home and I saw how hard it was for us to develop entry and mid level managers. And that’s primarily because [00:02:00] soft skills like communication, collaboration and leadership take time to be developed, right?

You need life experience. You need to go through situations where you talk to multiple people, you negotiate, you handle conflict between colleagues. And so it was very hard for us to do this and talking to other, you know, HR leaders and learning and development experts. I quickly realized it was not just a struggle we faced, but the whole industry, and that the current organizational tools we had, e learning tools, learning management tools, were not sufficient enough, because they lacked the personalization needed to develop such skills and also the interaction with the learner and the experiential learning, if you wish.

Alexis: hmm,

Ioanna: That is the moment when I realized that I had to do something and I created the team around [00:03:00] Dextego to develop an AI coach that can democratize access to such skills across the organization, especially for anyone outside of the C suite that couldn’t afford an executive coach or didn’t have access to an executive coach.

And make it in a way that it can leverage also the company’s internal know how. So we can integrate with the existing systems that a company has again, whether this is a learning management system or PDFs or, you know, information they have, we can fine tune our model to that so that it can speak their language and really maximize, the value it can give to its employee to support them during their day.

So high level, that is, you know everything behind the reasoning. And for me personally, there’s another layer of equity, which [00:04:00] in my opinion, you know, people with soft skills sometimes tend to have. Access to more opportunities, whether we like it or not. Because they’re not afraid of asking for help.

They’re not afraid of meeting people. And on the contrary, you have some people, like introverts, that without the perfect pitch, they won’t go out of their way to, like, go to conferences or meet mentors. And as a result they might stay behind. And I think this is very unfair. And it shouldn’t be the case.

But the right training can equalize, you know, the playing field for, for everyone.

Alexis: Very, very, very interesting. So I love, the mission of Dextego and how it, it aligns with , your leadership philosophy. you spoke about hiring new people and growing talents. So tell me what, what qualities do you look for in team members?

Especially in those [00:05:00] early stage of of a startup.

Ioanna: Yeah, I love this question because I was just talking to a friend of mine who were talking about the fact that outside of the U. S. recruiters tend to see employee, both as a person and as a professional. But in the U S we tend to have this distinction between okay, professional versus personal, like the same thing for coaching.

Sometimes you go to a corporate coach and they just talk about how to boost your revenue. And then you go to someone that has more of the personal life coach approach and you see that the way they coach people is different. And to me, Also coming from Greece, I think the lines get blurry a little bit.

And I like to work with people, but also hire people that I can see myself spending time with outside of work. So to find this like culture [00:06:00] personal fit I think it’s very hard, but it’s the number one thing I look for. I look for people that have empathy, because when times get rough this empathy will allow us to work well together and overcome any difficulties.

I like people who are very hardworking and disciplined. So that I can count on them and I know that if they say, you know, they will be on a task, they will actually do it successfully and on time. That doesn’t mean perfectly, that just means that, you know, they, they do what they say. And I think that is something I really value, trustworthiness. 

And lastly I love to work and hire people that are always eager to learn, like they want to be developed, because if you don’t have that willingness, no matter, you know, what your employer throws at you, it won’t [00:07:00] land, right? So this, I would say, is the most important part. 

Alexis: So let’s let’s speak about a specific challenge that you faced as a CEO and how you managed it.

Ioanna: Very interesting. There is a lot I can think right now, but if I was to pick one, as a CEO, you know, for an early stage company, there are two main things you should focus on, and this is fundraising, if you are not bootstrapped, and getting sales in. I don’t think that what I’ll say is just specific to me, honestly, it’s probably something other founders of our states face, but I think there is always a difference between where you’re in now and where you want to get as a startup, right?

Like you have limited resources, so you do what you can today, but you have this grand vision. And so [00:08:00] that gap is sometimes. It’s very difficult to put in words and to be explained to someone that just is getting introduced, for instance, to your venture. So when I’m talking to investors or I’m talking to potential partners and companies that are super established and it’s, it could obviously be a risk of association for them to work with a company that’s new, that doesn’t have the brand awareness and recognition in the field.

I found myself many times, you know. Struggling to find the confidence. To persuade them that they should work with us now, because I know how far we can get, and that this might take some time, but if I, as the CEO, don’t speak into existence this vision today, right, to get to that level, then what am I doing?

So, it’s Someone gave me very good advice. [00:09:00] It’s the fear, you know, of overselling and under delivering sometimes that holds us back. Or, you know, imposter syndrome, all these things, different terminologies, but I cannot wear all the hats at the same time because I won’t move the company further.

Like I have to think, okay, right now, I’m selling, then I’m doing customer success. Then I’m doing investor relations. So I think the biggest thing I’ve learned. This last month since starting Dextego is how to split these roles. So don’t get overwhelmed and don’t act for the best, you know, of the company.

Alexis: that’s in a way balancing the, the needs of different stakeholders. By playing different personas and you know, yeah, that’s, that’s really hard when you need to do a lot of different things by yourself. Yeah.

Ioanna: You know, as a chief of staff, it’s the same thing, but now it’s, I would say, with more responsibility.

Alexis: Yeah, that’s absolutely true. Yeah.[00:10:00] how do you feel, how do you believe we can really foster an innovative mindset?

Ioanna: Even a time where Suddenly, the innovation doesn’t come from the top. It comes from the bottom. I think employees have so much power today to drive innovation and to speak up about what they want to see in a company. So I think, you know, the responsibility is. Spread across organization like anyone today can bring innovation, I think, to a company because we see, and I’ll speak on the L& D side, like 70 percent of employees today say that they’re willing to leave. 

To go to a company that develops them. So, similarly, I feel like there is a lot of fear from leadership to not satisfy employees when it comes to [00:11:00] innovation, to leveraging AI in particular because the employees could easily go somewhere else. So to me, to drive innovation successfully, you just have, if I speak to an employee now, right, you have to understand how the outcome, the ROI of whatever solution you’re bringing in will help leadership achieve their goals.

So if you speak their language. They will say yes. I think most of the times employees find such cool tools they want to use, but they can’t make a case to actually implement them because they’re missing that piece of, okay, but how will it really help us achieve our, like, five year plan or, you know, our quarterly goals.

And at the end of the day, whether we like it or not, the leadership cares about these things because they have to report to someone else. So I would say. It’s more [00:12:00] about understanding the strategy of the company and identifying the right type of innovation rather than a question of is the company open to innovation, yes or no?

Alexis: it’s very interesting because you are looking at some success metrics that, that could be met using something. for your company, what, what success metrics do you focus on and why?

Ioanna: Yes. So we focus on top talent retention. Because no matter who, what CEO you take from what field today they really care about their top talent, right? They care about the people that can call and they know they will get it done. these are people that they’ll do anything to keep in their company.

And so when you’re able to bring them a tool that is very personalized, that it matches their needs where they are today and you help them develop for the next day. You’re able to retain [00:13:00] them, but the other part and I made a post about this is totally on the company is how the company does the right change management to explain to the company that implementing a tool like Dextego is for them.

It’s not just the checkbox. It’s something that they understand they need for their personal and professional growth, whether they’re. Working at this company or not, but as a result, the employees will become loyal because they will. be part of this company where the culture is always about personal development and moving forward and improving each other. 

But today, unfortunately for, you know, the lack of technology, technological advancements in L and D for the last years, HR leaders have had the misconception that they have no power because they can’t drive revenue. They can’t drive a significant[00:14:00] you know, metric in the company. So for us being able to deliver reduction of top talent attrition by half in just a quarter makes them the heroes they wish they were all these years. 

And now we can have a seat at the table and really have others understand that they can make or break a company. At the end of the day, we know without talent. You got nothing. No matter what strategy you have on paper, you have no one to execute. So, to me, it’s a very important metric, and we see it across industries from, like, consulting firms that are really suffering from attrition, to startups, to big enterprises, and it’s a way to impact, you know the workforce overall, and knowing that, It’s for their own development.

It’s, it’s a, to me, it’s a just cause.

Alexis: So you, you mentioned that the tool is [00:15:00] adjusted to the needs of the people. 

Ioanna: Yes.

Alexis: what kind of adjustment are, I mean If I, if I’m early in my career or if I am a little bit later in my career, like me, for example, with over 50, how does the tool with, will adjust to our needs?

Ioanna: Excellent question. So, let’s take an example of something that will not adjust first. Like you go to a learning management system and you take the same course. On leadership that everyone else in your organization takes, for instance, right? What we do with DexEgo is the AI coach is able to understand through your answers, the way you answer to scenario based challenges, your level of skills, and adjust the level of Difficulty or the types of questions it asks you, and I’ll give you an example, to really make sure you develop the right skills.

So, [00:16:00] for instance, let’s take an example of a salesperson, and the scenario could be, hey, you have this client, that they’re throwing you this objection. How would you handle it? So you record yourself through video. The coach is your facial expressions, your tone, your pits and content of what you’re saying.

And it gives you personalized feedback back on what you did great, what you can improve. And over time, by you completing some more challenges, it understands. For instance, you might lack negotiation skills so you can close the deal. So we’ll give you more feedback and more related challenges to these till it sees that you improve.

And what we have behind the scenes to track that is our proprietary coachability index framework, which shows you. Basically, how coachable you are, how fast you’re implementing that feedback and how you’re improving your [00:17:00] skills over time. Because at the end of the day, it doesn’t matter if you start at, let’s say, 4 out of 10 in negotiation.

What matters is that you’re able to improve to 8 to 9 over time. And that’s, I think, what any employer cares about today because we’re moving into this skills culture. It’s not just what you have on paper. Can you actually learn on the spot and develop? And can we see you becoming an important part of Our company, you know, in years to come, I

Alexis: Excellent. So now I turn back the questions to you, to you. Have you evolved as a leader since starting Dextego?

Ioanna: think so. No, for sure. I think you know, in startups, we have talked about this before one year equals 10. If you will, you learn so much, you see so much, you meet so many people like every day [00:18:00] putting myself out of my comfort zone being in like a situation for the first time. I love it.

It’s super, Intriguing and challenging, but it allows for a lot of self reflection. I think the people that are following my journey can see that, you know, since the last time we meet, for instance, a lot has happened, or I’m improving, or the way I handle things is developing. So, I, I feel like I get feedback from others, and also from my self reflection, I can definitely see that growth.

I think the most challenging thing is to be okay with ambiguity, right? And vulnerability as a leader, whether you’re like a leader for the first time or the 10th time in your career, there will always be some ambiguity. And I’m definitely learning to, to handle that better than I did some months ago.

Alexis: [00:19:00] So if you, if you could give an advice to your younger self. Before starting Dextego what would it be?

Ioanna: that’s a great one. You know, my number one weakness, I’ve always said, is my patience. I’ve always said that. Since I was young, I feel like I’m very impatient. So, life has a way to Teach you to become patient or else, you know I wouldn’t be able to do what I’m doing now, but I would tell myself that it’s okay when, when things take time, there’s actually a beauty in it.

Cause you can. Be more excited when you get to the end result, and you can Develop more as a result as well. So I would tell myself to, to be patient and to Enjoy each moment, whether it’s tough or not. I think looking back, obviously every difficult moment in your life has made you right for who you are [00:20:00] today.

And if you took that away, you wouldn’t be who you are. Thanks. My little speech to my younger self.

Alexis: I love it. Thank you for that. Oh, can you tell us about an upcoming event? You’re particularly excited about?

Ioanna: Yes, a lot. We have three events in November on LinkedIn Audio and LinkedIn Live. We’re talking about leadership. We’re talking about why mentorship programs fail and how to overcome that. About flexibility. And then in 2024, I can say we’re preparing what’s called Dextagon. It’s basically an invite only event for HR leaders and C suite here in New York. But yeah, I, I won’t say much more. It will be very exciting and we’ll talk about human potential and how to drive us further as a human race.[00:21:00] 

Alexis: Excellent. I love it. So where can people learn more about Dextego and get in touch with you?

Ioanna: They can go to our website at dextego. com. That’s D E X T and ego, dextego. com as well as our LinkedIn. And mine as well, you know, Ioana Mantzouridou and check out all our events and upcoming shows.

Alexis: Excellent. Thank you very much Ioana for joining the podcast today.

Ioanna: Thank you, Alex. Thank you very much for your time.

Remote work is often treated as a question of tools: video calls, chat, shared documents, and the right stack.

Lisette Sutherland disagrees.

For her, the real topic is remote collaboration, and the hard part is not technology. It’s the human side: how we handle conflict, how we build trust, how we manage overload, and how we stay connected without relying on proximity.

Lisette is the founder of Collaboration Superpowers, host of the Collaboration Superpowers podcast, and author of Work Together Anywhere (now available in French). Her work draws on an international life across Germany, the United States, and the Netherlands, and on years helping teams learn to work together from anywhere.

Remote collaboration changes what becomes visible

Lisette started with remote work almost 20 years ago, back when tools were primitive and connectivity was painful. Today, the tech has mostly improved. What remains challenging is what was always there: personalities and relationships.

She names it clearly. The biggest struggle is navigating people without slipping into judgment or defensiveness, and intentionally choosing curiosity instead.

Remote doesn’t create these dynamics. It reveals them.

Two classic failure modes: rhythm and conflict

Lisette shared two examples from her experience on a distributed team:

• One person worked at a very different rhythm, moving faster than everyone else, taking over tasks unintentionally, and leaving others feeling stepped on. The team wanted to applaud the energy, but also needed to name the disruption.
• In another situation, personalities didn’t gel. Conflict escalated into back-channel conversations and private chats. The team eventually added a conflict handling section to their team agreement and brought in an external facilitator.

A key detail matters here: the team had a flat structure. No manager meant no clear decision owner, which made conflict harder to resolve. When nobody holds the responsibility to decide, teams need explicit protocols and skilled facilitation even more.

And an important reminder: you don’t have to be friends to work well together. Professional trust is enough, and sometimes that’s the realistic goal.

Start with yourself, then build the agreement

Lisette’s sequence is practical:

1. Create a personal user manual. Get clear on what you need to be productive, connected, and healthy.
2. Create a team agreement. Most teams still don’t have one, even when they know they should.
3. Address communication overload. Meetings multiply, channels multiply, messages never stop. Proximity used to hide this. Hybrid and remote make it unavoidable.

This overload is not only tiring. It also makes teams reactive. And reactivity kills good collaboration.

Innovative models: fewer messages, more clarity

Lisette points to WordPress as a gold standard. They largely eliminated email years ago by documenting decisions in a structured way: a trail where context, input, and outcomes are recorded so teams don’t have to reinvent the same discussions repeatedly. Over time, it becomes an organizational memory.

She also shared a strong example from a large German company running hybrid PI planning sessions for around 100 people across Malaysia, Canada, and Europe. What made it work was not a magic tool. It was rehearsal. They ran practice sessions before the real event, so teams learned how to use the whiteboard, how to communicate during planning, and how to avoid wasting the first hour on tool confusion.

That investment creates a capability the company can reuse.

Face-to-face is a powerful accelerator

Lisette doesn’t treat in-person time as mandatory, but she does treat it as a catalyst. It speeds up bonding and trust.

You can build real relationships remotely, even deep friendships, but it can take longer. In-person moments compress time.

Remote is failing on a mass scale, but not for the reason people think

Lisette observes the current backlash: return-to-office mandates, leaders claiming productivity is down, culture is suffering, people are less connected.

She doesn’t deny the symptoms. But she challenges the diagnosis.

Remote work is often being used as a scapegoat for poor management. Many companies had weak engagement and weak culture long before remote. Remote simply makes it harder to hide.

Two experiments she’s excited about

Lisette is currently exploring two formats:

• An Icebreakers Playground: experimenting with icebreakers and tools to observe their effect on group dynamics.
• Virtual coworking sessions using Pomodoro: quick check-in, three focus sprints, short breaks, and a closing celebration. Simple accountability, strong results.

Where to follow Lisette

Lisette offers a Remote Working Success Kit, including a guide for a personal user manual, team agreement tips, and time zone guidance at:

collaborationsuperpowers.com/superkit

Here’s the transcript

Alexis: [00:00:00] Welcome to Le Podcast on Emerging Leadership, I am Alexis Monville. Today we have a special treat for all of you who are navigating the complexities of remote work and leadership. We are joined by Lisette Sutherland. A pioneer in the realm of remote collaboration. She’s the force behind Collaboration Superpowers. a platform that equips people and companies to work together from anywhere. Lisette is also the author of the book work together anywhere. a comprehensive guide to thriving in a remote environment. And the book is now available in French, by the way. With her hands-on workshops and her own podcast, she’s been helping teams across the globe to connect and collaborate effectively no matter where they are.

Hey, Lisette, how do you introduce yourself to someone you just met?

Lisette: I try to keep it as simple as possible because nobody wants to hear a long story, so I always just say I help teams work better together remotely. I kind of leave it open and that way [00:01:00] if people wanna ask a little more, they can ask it from whatever angle they want to. And otherwise, if they look at me with dear eyes, I just kind of move on to the next subject and I and I ask about them.

Alexis: I love it.

Can you share a specific moment or experience that led you to specialize in remote work?

Lisette: Yeah. I mean, it was a long series of small events, but really the, where it actually started was when I was living in Los Angeles almost 20 years ago, and I was working for a man who was building at that time an online project management tool. Now you have to remember, this is 20 years ago, and those tools were not available.

Basecamp had just started, you know, Zoho was still a very popular tool on the market. I mean, it was really a while ago. So there’s not that many tools out there. So the tool was interesting in and of itself because it was just interesting. But. He had us all over to his living room one day and he sat us all down.

He had like a, a pool. ’cause Los Angeles, so many [00:02:00] people have pools. So he had a swimming pool, so it was like a pool party. But he sat us all down and he started to explain his vision. And his vision was he wanted to end aging. So he wanted to stop aging. So his goal was he didn’t wanna die, so he was trying to figure out how to get longevity scientists collaborating together so that they could solve the problem of aging.

And he realized that these scientists didn’t live in the same town. And so he needed to create a tool for them to collaborate and share data and solve this problem. And so I remember sitting in his living room and. My mind was blown, right? I was just like, what a wild idea. And I thought, well, why not? You know, like, why not?

But the thing that happened was it got me thinking about what else could we do if location wasn’t an issue? So like, could we solve cancer? Could we, global warming? You know, so there’s a, there’s a bunch of things that played into it. One was [00:03:00] also that I had quit my job earlier, I worked for a, a big office and, I didn’t quite understand why I needed to quit the job.

I just knew in my body that I needed to quit, and eventually I learned later that it was because the office was so ugly. I. And I was having an allergic reaction to just the gray walls and the cubicles, you know? So all of this sort of played into me getting interested in remote work and I just started asking people how they were working remotely, what they were doing.

And you know, everything else followed in a long series of events, but it really all started with that weird conversation in that man’s living room.

Alexis: That’s very interesting, that’s more than remote work, that’s really that idea of remote collaboration.

Lisette: Exactly. I don’t care about remote work at all. For me, it’s way more exciting because what ended up happening after that conversation was my favorite band from when I was a teenager. I had met them because I’d been to so many shows, you know, but, and my favorite band called me to see if I could go on tour [00:04:00] with them now, because I was working for this man who was building an online project management tool.

I was able to work from the van with my team during the day with a mobile router stuck onto the window of the van, and at night I was tour manager and I was selling merchandise and part of the band, and I, I was on tour with them for years doing this. And so the freedom that being able to work from anywhere offered me, changed my life in that way, right?

I was all of a sudden I could work from anywhere. And so I started thinking like, what am I doing in Los Angeles? Like, I could go anywhere, like, why am I here? So, yeah, it’s yeah, it was bigger than remote work indeed.

Alexis: That’s excellent. Are, you originally from los Angeles?

Lisette: No, I have a weird history in terms of that. I grew up in Germany for the first 10 years of my life, and then went to the US for 25 years. So, consider myself American, my, my roots somehow where I grew up as American. But then 15 years ago, I moved to the Netherlands. [00:05:00] I’ve been in the Netherlands ever since.

And now I have Dutch citizenship, so I’m never going back. But but yeah, so I I’m kind of a mix.

Alexis: That’s well connected with

working from anywhere

and living from where

you, feel that your, your place, your home is. That’s, that’s really cool.

Lisette: And it opened me culturally also to understand how different cultures. So just to have an awareness of that so that that also helped

Alexis: I can totally relate with that. when you are used to work with people on only from the same country, you you start to understand really well the interactions, the way they communicate. And suddenly when there’s someone from another country that don’t have exactly the same norms in term of communication, So when you get to work with people in a lot of different countries that change your perceptions of other people.

Lisette: Yeah, indeed. And you never think it’s gonna be that big of a deal. I mean, I moved from the US to the Netherlands, so it didn’t seem like it was gonna be that huge [00:06:00] of a culture change. But it’s the little things, it’s all the details. yeah, never underestimate all the details. the

Alexis:

Can you recall a, a challenging remote work situation and how you navigated it?

Lisette: In the early days, all the remote situations were challenging in that it was unusual. It, the internet connection wasn’t good everywhere and so, You know, I say like I was working from the van, but it was quite painful to try to really interact with the teams. For me, the most challenging remote work situations now, now that the tech is better, comes in the personalities of the people that I’m working with on teams.

Right. So it’s the conflict, it’s the trying to understand somebody else that I think is where . Where it’s super challenging now, even for me at this time, is just really trying to navigate personalities and figuring out why people are the way that they are. Cause [00:07:00] I tend to be very judgmental and defensive, which are not good qualities and, and so it’s extra hard work when something happens to not have that knee jerk reaction.

Of like, what the heck is going, you know, what the heck? You know, I, I really have to force myself into curiosity mode. So I think for me, that is the most challenging situation. I know it’s not a specific one, but I wrestle with it weekly,

Alexis: I, like that you are self-aware enough to be able , to catch yourself,

Lisette: sometimes .

I’m not, I’m no angel. I’ll admit. I am no angel, but I am working on it,

Alexis: do you have a real life example where poor communication led to a problem in, in the remote setting?

Lisette: Yeah, for sure. I’m thinking back when I was on the Management 3.0 team and there there, the team changed quite a lot, people coming in and out. But there’s one a couple people on the [00:08:00] team, actually, there’s one person where they worked at a different rhythm. Than the rest of the team.

Like they were just so much faster. I don’t know what happened. They were like on, on, I don’t know what it was. They were just like moving at a on freight train speed and the rhythm really threw everybody off and we were having a hard time communicating about it because you don’t wanna tell somebody to slow down like that doesn’t seem, you know, you’re like, you know, you’re too good.

Because he was kind of taking every pieces of everybody’s jobs because he was just getting ’em all done, and everybody kind of felt like they’re, they’re getting stepped on. So that was a very challenging situation because we all wanted to applaud his enthusiasm, and yet we were all really annoyed by how like many things he was trying to take care of.

So that was a difficult conversation. And then there was another one where the personalities just didn’t gel. And in that case, It prompted us to create a new section in our team agreement about [00:09:00] how we were gonna handle conflict as a team. Like when it comes up, what steps are we gonna take? Because what ended up happening was everybody was talking behind everybody’s back, and it’s online.

So you’re just in all these private chats all day, you know, like whispering to everybody back and forth about what’s going on, and it just wasn’t helpful. And so eventually what we ended up doing is one, we brought in an outside facilitator to help facilitate the conversation because everybody was too close to it.

And the other thing that was odd in that situation was we had a very flat structure. There was no boss, like there was no one in charge. And so when a situation like that arose, there was no manager to make decision. the We just had disagreements and nobody to make the, the top decision on like which way to go.

And so we brought in an outside facilitator that just had no skin in the game, you know, they were just there to facilitate the conversation and that really helped. And from there we built our processes for the future. [00:10:00] But I have to be honest, we never ended up getting along. We just never liked each other, but I also learned that you don’t have to like each other to work well together.

You can still work well together and not be friends That’s also okay.

Alexis: But that’s a, good one about building your team agreements and, evolving your team agreements and maybe sometimes you need That’s okay. ,

And I like your second point about,

you don’t need to be friends.

It’s a, it’s, it’s an interesting one about what are your expectations on, being on the team.

And for some, people that’s definitely, befriending everybody, and it’s not necessarily helping them or helping the team. So it’s an interesting challenge.

Lisette: Yeah. Yeah, it’s, it is weird because you have to be professional, but not, I mean, it’s great when you become friends. Some of my closest friends are people that I work with. Like, you know, forever, you know, Canadian Dave, I have worked with him since I was 22 years old and, you know, we’re still friends to this day and yeah.

But I, I did learn you have to be professional, but you don’t have to be friends. It’s great [00:11:00] when it happens, but it’s not a requirement.

Yeah.

Alexis: That’s cool. Okay. so tell me, have you consulted for a company that’s successfully transitioned from the traditional setting to remote work?

Lisette: I have never consulted really. So I’m not a consultant and I’ve made the distinction early on and I’m wrestling with it now because I’m wondering like maybe I should consult with people. What I have always done is give workshops . so I, what I have done is I go into a company and I give a workshop and we create a super action plan.

Then usually in the companies that I work with, they’ve got an agile coach, or a Scrum master, somebody on their team that’s helping them integrate these new practices into their everyday work. Because I think with remote work, what it actually is in the end is a change management program, and so, I specialize in giving the workshops and seeding the information.

And then there’s an agile coach usually, or a consultant already at [00:12:00] company that takes over, the or one of my facilitators, they also do consulting. So anytime a company wants me, to take them through the process, I hand them over to the experts of change management,, or the agile leadership sort of method.

I don’t specialize in that, but I have interviewed and I have given workshops for hundreds of companies now, well, I wouldn’t say hundreds that have transferred from in-person to remote. That is a more recent phenomenon, but definitely dozens of companies now that have transitioned.

Alexis: What are the things, the typical things that need to go through or they need to already understand, so it can work.

Lisette: Yeah. One is I always start people off by saying you really need to start with yourself and creating for yourself a personal user manual for what it is that you need in order to be productive. Get really clear on that so that if you need to be around people, Make sure that you build that into your day or if you really, you know, if you’re not getting enough movement or [00:13:00] whatever your why is that you’re trying to work in this way, really be clear.

From there, then I always, say, you’ve gotta build a team agreement, and everybody knows this. I’ve been saying it for since the beginning one, one of my first interviews was about creating team agreements and I was like, oh yeah, that seems like an obvious one, and I’ve been teaching it ever since. And yet I would say 85, 90% of all companies that come to my workshops have no team agreement in place. So creating a team agreement is the next thing. And then the other biggest thing that people are running into is communication overload. Too many meetings, too many emails, just the bombardment of information coming in, it’s not slowing down. is the problem, right? We’ve tried filters, we’ve tried flags, we’ve been priori, you know, priorities on the emails, the, the channels. it doesn’t stop the information from coming. And so that is, I would say that is the biggest challenge or one of the biggest challenges that people are struggling with now is when you’re together in the office, [00:14:00] you can kind of manage that information overload by proximity because you’re all together.

But when you go hybrid especially, or just let’s just say remote flexible first. Let’s say flexible first. So however you’re working, that information overload with everybody in various locations has to be managed differently than we’re doing it now.

Alexis: Have you observed, an innovative work model, recently that solved those kind of issues?

Lisette: Yeah, indeed. And, the gold standard for this is WordPress because they’ve been working with their, they created a system, a blogging system called P two years ago and have actually eliminated email from the company pretty much. 15 years ago. And what essentially what they’ve done is every time a decision needs to get made, you know it ha it goes into sort of a sort of blog.

Sort of post where others can add information to it. Maybe you want a loom video or a link or outside information, right? And everything sort of gets documented. [00:15:00] And over time what it’s done is it’s created an organizational blockchain of all their decisions that get made. And so instead of all these emails going back and forth or a meeting about why is this thing blue?

They have a record of their organization and all their decisions that they can go back to so that they don’t have to reinvent the wheel all the time. So I find that a really innovative way because they found a way to document things in a, in a way that is useful. Otherwise, you know, it’s just information everywhere.

So you’ve really gotta organize it. And then another innovative work model that I’ve seen is just a company that actually has, this is one that has recently transitioned from in-person to remote. A company in Germany, and they’re a huge company with thousands of people, and they have started to run hybrid PI planning sessions.

So for those, I think I know your, your audience is very agile, so you’ll know the PI planning sessions, but these are basically [00:16:00] very large meetings of like a a hundred people. Are planning the next, let’s say two to three months, I think it’s maybe six, seven weeks. I’m not sure how many sprints they’re planning for, but they’re planning for like the next two to three months and they’re doing that all together.

Usually you wanna do it in the same room with like a big whiteboard with sticky notes and everybody’s there together, but they’re doing it across three time zones, Malaysia, Canada, and Europe. So it’s like 12 hour difference. They’re doing it in a hybrid way, and so I’ve found that just the focus and the attention that they’re putting on that to make it happen, I find it very modern and refreshing.

It’s not ideal and it’s very hard, but it’s a reality for many teams, right? Of course, you’d wanna do PI planning in the same room together. Of course you would want that, but the reality is you can’t. So then what? And so that’s the innovation there. I’m

really enjoying

Alexis: that’s very impressive. [00:17:00] How many people are there, are involved in those hybrid PI plannings.

Lisette: 100.

Alexis: Okay That’s quite a lot. Okay. I.

Lisette: It’s quite a lot. And the, and the guy that did it, he really experimented with it in the beginning. What he did is he actually ran practice sessions with all of the teams before they did an actual PI planning session. And they just did it to get used to, how do you behave on the whiteboard? How is it gonna be used?

How are we gonna communicate with each other as it’s happening? You know, like, let’s run through a demo together. So they did that. Then they actually ran the session and it’s working. I mean, it’s still painful, but the reality is that they can’t get everybody together.

It’s just

Alexis: Yeah, Okay. that’s a, that’s confronting the Brutal reality

it’s, it’s usually a good idea. But yeah, those big room

plannings are, when they are in person are, when they are in person and well facilitated, are usually really good. but [00:18:00] when you cannot do it. You need to find another big room and an online one can work.

It’s interesting. I love the idea of the practice session,

number of time when you start something and you make the assumption. Don’t ever make assumptions that everybody will be able to use the tools. I. And then you realize that they’re not able to connect, or they are, they don’t understand how to even create a sticky note, and you spend the first half hour to try to explain to people, while others are really frustrated by those people, that’s not really a good start.

Lisette: Totally yeah, a dress rehearsal is, it was brilliant. It was really brilliant and you know, it took him so much time. , like he really spent a lot of time on this, however, now, they can now do PI planning sessions on a regular basis. You know, anybody new that comes in will be helped by the collective of people that are already working on this.

And so what he did is he, you [00:19:00] know, he spent a considerable amount of time upfront to get them up and running, but now they’re up and running and they’re only gonna get better from here. Right? So the superpower that this company has now developed, I think was well worth any investment that they made into that.

Alexis: could you share with us, an anecdote about a remote team building exercise that had really a significant impact?

Lisette: Yeah, this is interesting. So this one was a hybrid experience that I had, but so I was working with the these people in person and remote, so it was a hybrid situation, but I was the only woman on an all male team, and. I don’t, I, you know, it never, it didn’t even occur to me. It wasn’t a thing, but it was just that I was the only one and it was so o like I was the, you know, so obvious.

And I was the only American on a team of all Dutch men. So, there’s a lot of differences already and I haven’t naturally enthusiastic personality, and I don’t know whether that’s because I lived in America or it’s just, Who I was [00:20:00] from the start, I don’t know. But I was really trying to tone it down and keep a professional distance with everybody and, you know, just being sort of very professional and not letting my enthusiasm or sort of my natural humor come out.

Also, my humor doesn’t come across as other Sometimes in languages know, I can really express myself better in English, I . So But I played moving motivators with one of the people at the office. I think he had seen it on my desk or he knew that I was, it was just in the beginning when I was first starting, to work with Jurgen and all of these things.

And he saw moving motivators and we actually played a game of moving motivators together. And what happened from the game is it turned out that his primary motivator was relatedness, meaning that. He needed to be friends with the people that he worked with. That was really important to him, much more than anything that he was working on.

And he had been trying to be friends with me and I was like shutting him down. And when I saw that [00:21:00] his big thing was relatedness, it was like this aha moment. And so it allowed me to let the guard down a bit. And we became friends and we’re still friends to this day. And I really, I think I owe it to that game because I didn’t realize he was trying to reach out.

And so one of the, I guess to bring it back to remote one of the things that I think the context that we sometimes miss when we’re remote is is what people need in order to feel connected on a team. So I think that’s the thing that I learned from that is you really have to ask people what they need in order to feel connected.

He needed friendship and I was just trying to fit in . So yeah, that, yeah, that was a, that was a mindblower, it was a game changer for me because now I think

in those terms.

Alexis: Yeah, I will put links, for the listeners.

Jurgen is Jurgen Appelo

moving motivators is one of the

management 3. 0 [00:22:00] tools.

So a few things that,

I will put links to because. Those are really amazing things, and you are absolutely right that that connectedness, that sometimes we are able to build in person more easily, but not always, because you still need to be intentional about it, online, it’ll, you definitely need to be intentional. So using those kind of games, understand the motivations of others. That’s fantastic!

you are also the host of a podcast I love.

That’s collaboration superpowers.

Lisette: Yeah.

Alexis: Yeah.

can you tell me about a story that on one of your podcasts that had really a significant impact on your understanding of remote work, remote collaboration.

Lisette: I mean, there’s been so many. I do the podcasts in order to learn myself. That’s what I mean. I’ve never, I look back and I see how people use their podcast as a sales [00:23:00] tool, and I’m a little bit ashamed ’cause I’ve never even thought about it. Like, for me, the podcast was always a way of networking with people that I wanted to talk to.

So I’m like looking back, like, how could I use this for, as like a, a sales funnel? But I, I just, it never even occurred to me, which is so silly. So you know, from the beginning I spoke with . These are all things I knew, but they were really reinforced ’cause I was speaking with experts in their field. So there was one Teo Haren, he’s a creativity expert from Sweden, and he wrote a book about why it’s important to change your place when you work.

And I remember him saying like, if the best place for you to work is at the office, then you need to work at the office. He has yet to meet a hundred, you know, one person that says a hundred percent of the time all year round. The office is the best place to work. So he really solidified for me that it was important for people to change their place just for the sake of creativity and innovation.

Right? Sitting in that same great cubicle every day was not innovative. So yeah, so that was a mindblower. [00:24:00] When I spoke with Phil Montero, I mentioned this earlier, Phil Montero was one of the leaders in this field way back in the day, and he was just too early. He was like way, way ahead of his time. But he’s the one that came up with the team agreement and in fact, I took it with his permission and ran with it.

But he’s the one that said to me, you must have a team agreement. And this was reinforced recently by when I spoke with astronaut Paul Richards in January. I wanted to interview him about . Extreme remote collaboration, like remote, like what are, you know, they’re working from space, you know, we’re just talking about time zones between like here in New Zealand, right?

Like space is different. And what he really said is astronauts train to have the right information at the right place at the right time. And a good example of this is in Houston at headquarters, all the channels are open. Everybody’s listening in on all the channels, right? So it’s just madness. It’s just you can hear and see everything.

So it’s like having Microsoft Teams and Slacks and everything [00:25:00] open all at the same time, right? Madness. But they all have specific protocols about if you need to get attention in a particular place, or if you need to show somebody something in particular, that there is a protocol that you use and then all of a sudden that person is dialed in, right?

And so it occurred to me that that is similar to what we need on remote teams. Or hybrid teams, I, I use them interchangeably is that we need intentional working is the superpower. That is the key to making it all work is, you know, there’s no one right method. There’s no one right tool. It’s all about being intentional about how you work together.

That is the only way, if the astronauts left it to chance, it would be madness. And it’s the same for remote, you can’t leave it to chance.

Alexis: that’s Very interesting. Once again, the intention is really key. So we spoke a lot about remote and hybrid. how important is face-to-face interaction in that age of hybrid remote work?

Lisette: I think it’s really important, but I don’t say it’s [00:26:00] critical. I don’t say, I mean, it’s not necessary. You can do team building online. It’s possible. We’ve seen evidence of it in many different places. I have my own anecdotal e evidence that I can share. But face-to-face sure does. It sure does make things faster and it enhances it.

So it sort of acts as, oh, I’m gonna forget the word. I wanna say enzyme, but it’s not an enzyme. It’s something, it’s, it makes things go faster. It it speeds it up. I can’t think of the word right now. So what I would say is, I mean, my experience with the Management 3.0 team was we worked together for four or five years before we ever got together in person because I was insistent that if anybody could build a remote team, I could do it.

Right. Like what kind of what? What sad confidence that was. And then we got together in person and it changed the whole thing. Like we got an Airbnb in Portugal in Lisbon and the team went out one night and we just got . I mean, alcohol was [00:27:00] involved. We were very drunk and dancing in the streets of Lisbon and having the best time.

And it changed the dynamic of the team. We were like a very close, tight-knit team after that, we had really shared something special with that and we’d laugh the whole night and the rest of the weekend. It was great. And from then on we met every six months and it only enhanced the bonds of the team. We were close before, but we were, we were different after.

I must say it was really different, so now I really recommend that people do it. The thing is, is that I know you can build a a bond without it because I also worked with a woman for nine years. She was in California and I was in the Netherlands. We virtually coworked together for nine years and she was one of my closest friends.

And so we did finally meet in person right before the pandemic for the first time. And it was fun because I knew, I knew her whole apartment because I’d worked with her for nine years. So I’d like had breakfast with her in the morning. I’d been to the bathroom when she put on her makeup. You know, like, you know, I’d seen, I’d been on [00:28:00] all the dates that she’s been on and the, I didn’t go on the dates with her, but you know, like I got to hear about all the dates that she’d been on.

So I’d like seen her clothes and helped her pick out outfits and things, you know, like we had a real friendship as if we were hanging out together. it’s possible, it just takes a long time.

Alexis: it’s very, very interesting to see the difference. the Airbnb aspect of it. I was on, That team, we had a Airbnb too. Cooking the meal together is making you close.

That’s probably an experience that people need to live from time to time.

Lisette: Yeah. Yeah. And it’s, you know, there’s just nothing like sharing a big pile of nachos together. and just hanging. It’s, there’s just nothing like that online yet. And yeah, I don’t believe in replacing that either. I think people were naturally like that

Alexis: So, everything rosy, but do you have a, a real life experience when remote work, remote [00:29:00] collaboration fail?

Lisette: We see it everywhere. It’s failing now, right? There’s all the return to office mandates that are happening now. So I would say we’re actually seeing remote failing on a mass scale at the moment because leaders are saying that productivity is down, people are disappearing, and culture is suffering.

Alexis: Mm-hmm.

Lisette: People feel less connected to the company now, and I, I can’t dispute that. I mean, the data shows that productivity is a bit down. You’re hearing stories of shenanigans, but that’s ’cause those are the fun stories to hear, right? The people that have two to three jobs, the, the people that are just, you know, they’ve got like a robot moving the key, the mouse so that it looks like they’re active.

And I mean, I think we’re just seeing remote work fails everywhere in the moment. And because it’s not for everybody and if you wanna do it, you really have to set yourself up to do it well.

Alexis: Hmm.

Lisette: So, I mean, [00:30:00] yeah, I, I can’t dispute the data. People are, one is people are less connected to the companies, but I also think, you know, that’s somewhat the company’s responsibility also because we need to figure out like, what do people need in order to feel connected to the company?

Alexis: Yeah, I have the, the feeling that it’s, We are blaming remote work for that lack of connection and lack of engagement. at the same time, when I look at the, the Gallup survey that they are doing for more than 20 years now, engagement was already low for a lot of companies. For a really long time. So,

yes, we can blame remote work I’m not completely sure the, the, the reason is, is there, and the mandate to be back to the office will really help with that. So, i would encourage people to, to dig a little bit deeper than.

Lisette: I totally agree. I’ve been saying, and I shouldn’t say that, I shouldn’t say this on a podcast, but Okay. I think that remote work is being used as a scapegoat for [00:31:00] poor management.

Alexis: Yeah.

Lisette: I think they’re blaming remote work, but actually it’s, it’s the way that we’re, it’s the way that we’re working. That’s not, that’s not working and it’s, but it has nothing to do with remote.

It’s just that it’s highlighted by remote. You hide it can’t with remote weirdly enough.

Alexis: I like that. so, can you tell us about an upcoming workshop or event you are particularly excited about?

Lisette: Well, I’m experimenting with two new kinds of events, so we all, you know, we have the workshops about remote working. We’ve got one on hybrid and leadership and the work together anywhere is our flagship workshop. And those are all standard well-oiled machines at this point. Like we’ve given them thousands of times, like we know the, the right, the right stuff.

It’s good. I’m experimenting now with something called an icebreakers playground. The point of this is to just play around with various icebreakers and various tools to understand their effect on group dynamics. [00:32:00] So for example, if you’re trying to get a group to get together and have, have big ideas, you want ’em to think outside the box, right?

And do something new. Are there exercises that you can do remotely to warm a group up in that way

Alexis: Mm-hmm.

Lisette: Or, you know, like maybe it’s a new tool. And so I, I’ve called it the icebreakers playground because one, it’s experimental for me. I don’t know what’s gonna happen. And so, you know, in my designed workshop, I know exactly what’s happen.

It’s been designed that way, but in the playground it’s really experimental. And so I’m very uncomfortable with the, the improv of it all because it never goes as planned. And yeah, it’s always a bit scary as a facilitator ’cause it never goes as planned. But it’s really fun to play around with all these different activities and exercises for just how to get to know each other and how to create a specific group dynamic.

And then the second event that I’m working on is virtual coworking sessions. And what these sessions are, are basically[00:33:00] we use the Pomodoro technique. People show up, they say, what are you, what are you gonna get done over the next two hours? And then we, and we do like a quick icebreaker, what are you gonna get done?

That just lasts less than 10 minutes. And then we do 30 minutes of focused work. We have the camera on and the sound off. Then we take a five minute break, we come back, do 30 more minutes, another five minute break, and then a third 30 minute session. And then we end by checking in with each other for what did you get done?

How’s it going? And we do a little celebration and then we move on with our day. And they’re just, it’s amazing how much you get done with three 30 fo with 30 minute focus sessions. And it’s amazing how much more you focused when watching other people are there you. Sometimes I’m, you know, like my mind is, I have like monkey brain, right?

It’s all over the place. And so I’m like, oh yeah, I could. I’m like, no, no, no. I, I’m doing this task. I’m focused here with this person. Oh, no, no, you know, no, no, I’m doing this task. [00:34:00] So it’s, it’s, and it’s really fun. They’re free you know, we’re just playing around with them just to get stuff done and see what it’s like to virtually co-work with each other, what comes up.

So those are two events I am really enjoying.

Alexis: That’s fantastic excited about it.

I know that there’s some tasks that I really want to do. As soon as I start to work on it, I’m already procrastinating and I’m already finding new things to do or things to fix or, or let me do and then, and an hour pass. So I believe, I will go to, in one of the coworking session.

Lisette: Good. Yeah, that’s exactly what these sessions are for. Like, if you’re at home alone, you know you need to do it. You don’t really have to do it though, right? Like if you don’t get it done, it’s not gonna hurt anything. But it’s, it’s exactly for tasks like that. So yeah, join us. Join us and have some accountability.

It’s super fun.

Alexis: That’s very cool. So where can our listeners follow you to get more real world tips on remote work or remote collaboration?

Lisette: Well, what I’ve done [00:35:00] is I’ve put together I call it a super kit. It’s a remote working success kit and it has a guide for creating your personal user manual, how to set up a team agreement some time zone tips, and it’s got also the super cards, right? So if you’ve got like a PDF where you can print most popular. And you can get that at collaborationsuperpowers.com/superkit.

Alexis: Excellent. Thank you very much, Lizette, for having joined the the podcast.

Lisette: Was my honor. Thank ​you!

This is Le Podcast on Emerging Leadership. Today’s episode is a little different.

For this recording, OpenAI is the host. Just for today. The regular host shared the BEPS framework with OpenAI and asked for questions to ask.

Emma Monville impersonated OpenAI for the recording.

Now that this is clarified, let’s continue.

The BEPS framework: four axes of leadership growth

BEPS is a framework designed to help leaders and managers broaden their impact. It maps leadership responsibilities across four axes:

Business
Understanding the business and the ecosystem your organization operates in. It includes developing a clear vision and understanding the reasons behind your solutions, products, features, and services.

Execution
Delivering work and achieving results.

People
Hiring, growing people, managing performance, and self improvement.

System
Understanding the system formed by people, organization, processes, and tools, and removing obstacles to great work.

The framework is simple on purpose. It creates a shared map to talk about where a leader invests time, what they neglect, and how they can grow.

Why BEPS exists

Alexis created BEPS while helping teams move from a function based organization to cross functional teams.

In that shift, managers started questioning their role. Many saw management as primarily about pushing execution, often through micromanagement. BEPS helped them turn around and see the full space of leadership: business clarity, people growth, and system improvement, not only delivery.

The common trap: execution everywhere

In Alexis’s experience, most leaders overinvest in Execution and underinvest in everything else.

Sometimes it looks productive: more tasks, more activity, more tracking, more pressure.

But without Business understanding, you can deliver the wrong thing. Without People focus, you burn out or lose talent. Without System work, you keep fighting the same friction again and again.

The framework makes this imbalance visible.

BEPS as a self improvement tool

The simplest way to use BEPS is personal reflection.

Look at your past week and ask: how much time did I spend on each axis?

Then do it again for several weeks. Patterns show up quickly. Not all weeks are the same, so Alexis recommends looking at a longer period, and recognizing that some activities have a cadence. For example, career conversations may happen monthly or quarterly, not weekly.

The point is not perfect balance every week. The point is awareness, then deliberate adjustment.

BEPS to assess a team or organization

BEPS also works at a team level.

If a team’s priorities are entirely framed as activity and delivery, the framework invites better questions:

• What do we know about our business and our ecosystem?
• How do we know we are building the right thing?
• How do we grow and retain people?
• What are we improving in the system to make delivery sustainable?

A healthy set of priorities touches all four axes. If everything sits in one axis, blind spots are likely.

Why System must be separate from Execution

Alexis explains why he does not merge System into Operations.

When System and Execution are mixed, people tend to default to Execution and neglect improvement. BEPS keeps System visible.

Alexis connects this to Deming’s idea: a bad system will beat good people every time.

How BEPS relates to other leadership models

BEPS is not meant to replace other frameworks. It is a map that helps leaders locate their growth edges.

Alexis mentions:

• Servant leadership, especially when managers shift away from micromanagement and toward enabling teams
• broader models like Strategy People Operations, where BEPS adds clarity by separating System from Execution
• habits and practices that can be used to grow along each axis

How the framework evolved

BEPS did not start as BEPS.

It started with three axes: Business, Execution, System.

The People axis came later.

Alexis shares this openly and explains why: early on, the teams he worked with associated people practices with bureaucracy and box ticking. He wanted first to shift how they saw the organization and the system. Then, when the time was right, People became the fourth axis.

The two qualities behind the framework

To use BEPS well, Alexis highlights two key qualities:

• curiosity: learning, listening, exploring beyond your default area
• humility: accepting you do not know everything, and being willing to adjust

Together, they create the conditions for real growth across all four axes.

OpenAI

Alexis, how would you describe your role to someone you just met?

Alexis

I am the Chief of Staff to the CTO at Red Hat, an enterprise software company with an open source development model.

OpenAI

What inspired you to develop the BEPS framework?

Alexis

I was really looking for something that would be able to help people get out of the corner of the room they were stuck in. I was trying to help teams. I was trying to mentor people and help them see the full spectrum of their role, and they seemed to be blocked somewhere, stuck somewhere in the corner of the room. So for me, the BEPS Framework represented an opportunity to help them turn around and see all the available space for them to grow themselves and grow their organization or teams.

OpenAI

How did you develop the four axes of the BEPS framework (Business, Execution, People, and System)?

Alexis

It all started with working with a team and especially the managers of the team we were trying to really transform the organization from an organization that was built by functions. So you had product management, engineering, quality assurance, and support. All those organizations should work together to develop a product, but they were a little bit fighting with each other, trying to justify their lack of results. We were trying to change the organization and build cross-functional teams. The managers were wondering what their roles would be because they saw their roles as really focused on one aspect of the work, not looking at all the other axis. So, showing them the four axes was a way to tell them: Oh, okay, there’s more to my role than just micromanaging the people already doing the work.

OpenAI

In your experience, which of the four axes do leaders and managers often neglect or underinvest in?

Alexis

It’s really interesting because I believe the axis people love to be involved in is Execution, and they usually neglect all the others. So. It’s not necessarily one of them. It’s more all of them except execution. And they focused on execution, but in the wrong way. I’ve seen people already focused on really doing their work but forgetting about everything else. I’ve seen managers focused on getting people to do work, do work, do work, do work, do work, do more activities, and more work, more work, more work, and really micromanaging the activities but not looking at the other axes and not looking at the impact of that work and missing the whole point.

OpenAI

How can the BEPS framework be used by leaders, either individual contributors or managers?

Alexis

I believe a framework is first of all a self-improvement tool. It’s really, looking at it and reflect on what are your contributions. One way to do it is simply to look at your past week and reflect on how much time did you spend on each axis. If you look at the definition of the axis, what do you know about the business axis for example? What do you know about the industry you are in? What do you know about your competitors? What do you know about your partners? What do you know about your own business? Do you know how your company is making money? Do you know what are the really important forces at play there? Ah and if you have all the answers. That’s great. You can use all your knowledge about that business axis to improve on the three other ones. If you know nothing, there’s probably an opportunity for you to develop and an opportunity for you and your team to grow, work with your peers on so on and so on. So, first of all, a self-reflection tool that can help you be more effective.

OpenAI

Can you give an example of a situation where the BEPS framework helped a leader or team to be more effective?

Alexis

That’s really interesting because, in many mentoring sessions I did, people were usually a little bit stuck on execution. They wanted to get to the next promotion. In a way, they wanted to get to the next level. But they were missing the point about how to get there. The BEPS framework was an interesting tool to show them: Okay, where are you already working on? What are you really working on? And for example, if I pick the system axis for example, what are you doing to really improve the processes and the way the organization is set up? A lot of time, the leaders put that responsibility on their manager. Asking them: Really? That’s only on your manager to improve the organization, the system, and the processes. You have no role in that, and of course, by asking a few questions, they realized that they could do many things. They were the ones dealing with that system on a day-to-day basis, providing the experience to people. So that was a way for them to realize that they could be more effective. We can go to the other axes and have the same kind of conversation. So. It’s really an opportunity for people to see other aspects of their roles, other facets of their roles.

OpenAI

How can the BEPS framework be used to assess the focus and priorities of a team or organization?

Alexis

Yeah, it’s definitely that!  Where do you put your focus on? How do you define your priorities, and if your priorities are to deliver a list of activities and to tick all the boxes I’m asking you? Okay, but what do you know about your business? How do you improve your knowledge about your business? How do you know you are right? How do you know you are wrong? How do you know you’re developing the right things to serve your customers or users of your product or services? How do you help your people grow? How do you keep them in the company? Keep them engaged. So, If you look at the priorities of a team or an organization, there should be something on all of the axes. If everything is focused on one, you’re probably missing the point. So that’s a great tool to look at how people define their focus and priorities and help them reconsider, then move things away from their default axis.

OpenAI

How do the four axes of the BEPS framework relate to other common frameworks or models of leadership and management, such as servant leadership or the seven habits of highly effective people?

Alexis

Oh yeah, that’s a really great question. I was looking for a framework that is simple enough to explain and will cover all aspects without being too simple. For example, I’ve heard many times that the only framework you need to have is Strategy People Organization. No, Strategy People Operations more exactly. But you’re missing the point there because strategy, I can say, okay, that’s my Business axis. People, Okay, that’s my people axis. But Operations is Execution and System; usually, when you mix the two, people focus on the execution. They forget about improving the system, and as William Edwards Deming said: a bad system will beat good people each time. So you really want to have all those axes together.

If I consider Servant Leadership, it’s a really interesting one because basically, the managers I was helping when we changed the organization from functions to cross-functional teams with people in charge end to end of delivering something, the managers were looking for a new role because they were not supposed to micro-manage people and focus only on execution. So their role was already moving to that servant leadership role, so we helped them see that, and we used some of the servant leadership principles to help them reconsider their role, and it really worked well. And, of course, the 7 habits are well-known for many people, so that’s also simple training to have simple things to do, which helped them realize that they were not really working on the other axes. So, we use the other frameworks to help people grow on the four axes. BEPS is a simple way to help people discover all the facets of their roles and responsibilities.

A bad system will beat a good person every time.

William Edwards Deming

OpenAI

Can you share any tips or best practices for how leaders and managers can effectively balance their time and focus across the four axes of the BEPS framework?

Alexis

The first one is knowing what we are doing—knowing what you are doing and where you invest your time. So if all your time is focused only on one axis or you’re imbalanced, that’s a problem. But how do you know that? You only know that when you can track where you invest your time during the week, and you can do that in several weeks to have a good balance. So, of course, not all the weeks are exactly the same. Let’s say you’re doing that for four weeks, and you look at all the different aspects of your work, and each Friday, you take some time and tag. You say, okay that was really business, that was more execution, that was more already working in the system, that was more already working on the people, and so on and so on. You look at how balanced or imbalanced you are, and maybe you reconsider how you will invest your time in the following week or following weeks. I believe that’s this way. Ah, you can really have a better picture or a better balance. Of course, the things that you will probably do, and let’s say every month or quarter, you need to do that for a longer period to have a good picture of your balance or imbalance. For the people aspect, growing people or managing their careers, that’s maybe not a conversation you have every week. That’s maybe a conversation you have monthly or even sometimes quarterly only, so there’s a cadence to find and a balance to find on a quarter. That would be a good setup.

OpenAI

How has the BEPS framework evolved or changed since you first developed it?

Alexis

The beginning of the framework, and I’m a little bit ashamed of that. To be honest, there were only three axes. That was Execution, of course, and there were the business and the system axes. I really wanted people to connect their knowledge of the business with the execution, with the day-to-day work. I was focused on improving the system so you could see what was missing. And that’s why I’m ashamed of it. There was just a small missing piece. I forgot that people were maybe an interesting aspect of that framework. So, of course, I added that later. But just as an excuse for that, to try to justify me a little bit. The people I was working with really saw all the HR things as really bureaucratic and just ticking-the-box exercises, and I didn’t want to fight that battle upfront as a starting point. I already wanted them to reconsider the organization and all the processes involved first. So we started with those three axes, and then we added the people axis when it was the right time to do it.

OpenAI

In your opinion, what are the key qualities or characteristics that a leader or manager should possess to be successful using the BEPS framework?

Alexis

There are probably two qualities or two characteristics. It’s curiosity and humidity. I believe the two are really needed. You need to be curious. You need to learn to listen to others, and you need humility to reconsider things and accept that you don’t know everything. You probably don’t know how wrong you are or how right you are. Until you really see all the perspectives of the people of an organization. So Yeah, I would say curiosity and humility are the key qualities.

OpenAI

Alexis, you are the Chief of Staff to the CTO at Red Hat. Thank you for joining me today.

Alexis

Thanks for having me!

Some conversations leave you with a simple feeling: clarity.

In this episode of Le Podcast on Emerging Leadership, I speak with Ashley Freeman, founder of Flourishing Work, about purpose, trust, and the kind of leadership that helps people grow.

Ashley’s story begins in medical research, where she experienced both great and not so great bosses. That contrast sparked a question that stayed with her: what makes good leaders good?

She went on to study leadership formally, but the real turning point came when she became a people leader for the first time. That is when she saw theory become practice, and practice create results: teams flourishing and business outcomes improving together. Within six months, she knew what she wanted to do for the rest of her life: lead, and help others learn how to lead.

Leadership is taking care of people

Ashley anchors her view of leadership in a definition she aligns with Simon Sinek: leadership is taking care of people.

The best leaders she experienced invested in her development and offered opportunities before she felt ready. One example stayed with her: as an administrative assistant, she was invited into meetings and projects far beyond her job description. Not by accident, but by intention. The goal was growth.

That is also why Ashley insists leadership is not about title. You don’t need direct reports to lead. You can take care of people in any role.

Continuous learning, made real

Ashley keeps learning in a very concrete way: she runs a book discussion club every Saturday morning.

It started early in the pandemic with two participants. It grew. It then found a steady rhythm with a core group of five to seven people who still meet regularly. The club is not only about reading. It becomes a space to analyze concepts, apply them to real life, and hold each other accountable.

As I told Ashley, one of the most surprising parts of a book club is realizing you did not read the same book as the others. People notice different things, keep different quotes, interpret ideas through their own experience. The discussion doubles the learning.

And there’s a second effect: when a group is counting on you, you actually read.

Personal brand and trust

Ashley also works with leaders on personal brand, and she frames it in a grounded way: everyone has a brand, whether they manage it or not.

Your brand is what you are known for. It’s the blank in the sentence: “What a ___ they are.”

The useful part is this: you can influence that blank through choices and touchpoints. Which meetings are you in. What topics you show up for. What people hear you speak about. How you introduce yourself. How others introduce you.

And yes, it connects to trust.

Ashley’s point is not about forcing sameness. It’s about clarity: when you are clear about what you value, you attract people who can trust you because they understand what you stand for. You can be very different and still share core values such as respect. That shared core makes trust easier.

Difference, conflict, and better work

Ashley is also a Myers-Briggs practitioner and uses personality work with teams. She finds it especially useful because teams constantly do two things: take in information and make decisions.

When teams are very similar, they move fast and enjoy each other, but share blind spots. When teams are diverse in preferences, they can experience conflict and misunderstanding. Ashley’s approach is to help each side see the value the other brings.

Efficiency without relationships creates friction over time.
Empathy without outcomes creates a different kind of frustration.

The work is not to make people identical. The work is to build appreciation for why the difference matters, and how the combination creates better results.

The book: finding your career purpose

Ashley’s upcoming book is called The Path to Your Career Purpose.

She shares two beliefs behind it:

1. everyone has a career purpose, a unique combination of passions and talents
2. everyone deserves good leaders when they reach their dream job

The book is about moving from where you are today toward work that is both practical and meaningful. Ashley is careful not to dismiss the need to pay bills and provide for family. Her point is that both can be true: stability and purpose.

And she connects it back to leadership: if we help people reach purposeful work, we also need environments where they can flourish once they get there.

Closing thought

Ashley’s definition stays with me: leadership is taking care of people.

Not as a slogan. As a practice: development, opportunity, clarity of values, continuous learning, and the courage to work with difference instead of avoiding it.

Listen to the episode here:

Here is the transcript of the episode

Alexis

Hey Ashley, how would you describe your role to someone you just met.

Ashley

I Am the owner and founder of Flourishing Work which is a company based here in the US that provides facilitation and coaching services to leaders of all walks of life.

Alexis

Okay, okay, but tell me more What was the pivotal moment that led you to fund flourishing work.

Ashley

Oh great question. So my background is in medical research supporting the efforts of academic medical researchers and through that experience, I like everyone had good and not-so-great bosses and it just gave me a real passion for wanting to understand what makes good leaders good and what makes those leaders that aren’t as great. You know that way as well. And so  I ended up getting an MBA in leadership to really understand and study this topic further and it. But it was really when I started managing a team for the first time when I became a people leader for the first time that everything completely changed for me so I was able to see that the lessons we were learning in the classroom and the theory could actually be put into practice and do some amazing things to help the team really flourish and the business outcomes to match that level of productivity and that was it that when I about six months into being a people leader I said this is what I want to do the rest of my life I not only want to lead but also, more importantly, share how to lead and not just lead people literally but also just interpersonal skills like navigating difficult conversations. For example, I just wanted the rest of my life to be able to coach and teach people on those topics and it’s the best job in the world.

Alexis

Okay, okay, okay so you are a leader yourself. You worked with a lot of leader. So among those you admire? What’s the one trait that stands out to you.

Ashley

When I think about what a leader is I align with one of my favorite authors Simon Sinek’s definition which is taking care of people. So the best leaders that I ever had who led me were very invested in my development and giving me opportunities really before I even felt ready for them and made sure that I was okay and that I understood what my role was and that’s it. It’s It’s just taking care of people and that’s why I say you know in my opinion you don’t have to have direct reports to be a leader you can lead anyone. That’s definitely what stands out is that they just take care of their people regardless of who they are.

Alexis

Okay, okay, so that’s that’s really important because the taking care of people is something that you described if I understand well as growing them helping them to grow and identifying opportunities that help they believe you be good for that. That’s something around those lines.

Ashley

Yes, the best boss that I ever had brought me into a lot of meetings and projects that were well outside my Immediate job description. I was actually just an administrative assistant at that time and I say just because you know those projects and those meetings had nothing to do with organizing his calendar and booking his travel and some of the things that I was directly responsible for and yet he brought me into these opportunities for the express purpose of helping me to grow and I will never forget that.

Alexis

So really an important! How did you decide to develop yourself as a leader what was the one action you have in mind that was really, the One action you take you’ve taken in the past to develop yourself?

Ashley

Oh, that’s a good question I think I have kind of a vague answer to that because for me I really wanted to understand the theory behind what I knew who a good leader was and who a not so good leader was but I didn’t understand why. And for me, I really wanted to understand the principles behind what made good leaders good and so for me and in my case, it really was a lot of studying so I read dozens of books I still to this day lead a book club every Saturday morning I never stop learning. I just wanted to have that knowledge so that I could then apply it because I didn’t know what to do without that knowledge.

Alexis

I need to I need to ask a follow-up question on one thing you just said a book club a book discussion club every Saturday morning tell me more. Why are you doing that and I guess it will inspire people to do the same.

Ashley

Absolutely, you don’t have to have any experience I certainly didn’t it started in the very beginning of the pandemic and we just picked a book and set out some dates and when it was over. We didn’t want to stop and ah you know the first one I only had 2 participants and then the group grew significantly so we had probably I would say too many maybe eleven or twelve something like that, which was a little bit difficult on the virtual mechanism to really have that space to have discussion. It was just a few too many people. So then we found our stride in the third book and hit around say five or seven people and that group. That core group has been meeting ever since then which as of today what is that about None ars and two months and so why do we do that I mean it’s you know every to know that we have this core group of friends and colleagues every week that we can. We can learn together but more than that we’re we’re not just reading a book. It. It certainly provides enrichment beyond what you might read in a book itself. But more than that we become like I said friends and colleagues and we can really guide each other through the process of growing together and. Implementing and understanding analyzing some of the concepts from the book into our everyday lives and even hold each other accountable to improve our lives and our work.

Alexis

I love it. I definitely love it reminded me you know that the one book discussion club I went to and I that was one of the first ones so I was really really taking notes about the book to be sure that I will really have something to discuss and really really precise in all what I was doing and then the first person starts to speak and I’m thinking to myself: “it seems we didn’t read the same book”. And it was really fascinating the things that were already standing out for that person were totally different from me and I was looking at my notes and I was thinking that’s quite crazy. That’s really incredible. Of course, there were some commonalities. There were some things that we had in common but there were a lot of things.

Ashley

Um, yes.

Alexis

So That thought that I did not even saw that or look at that in for me, it was not really as important so I learned a ton just doing that just showing what you think is important. Showing how you articulate those learnings and listening to the others and you say Wow That’s the next level! That’s something yes and you remember the book and the learnings probably the book crazy well in doing that. That’s also that’s what’s really cool.

Ashley

Um, it’s I totally agree. It’s an incredibly enriching experience. It’s almost doubling the learning and the content that you’re taking in and even more than that you know that these people are counting on you to read this book. So you read a lot more books than you actually might otherwise because you know that you have that dedicated time so can’t recommend it enough when I first started I thought they were for I thought book clubs were for kids but ah here I am None years later still doing it every week

Alexis

Ah, I read on ah on your website that you are helping people on their personal brand.

Can you tell me more about that or about that idea of personal brand.

Ashley

Absolutely you know we all have one. We all have a brand whether we’re managing it or not whether you’re a leader or not whether you work or not whatever you do you have some sort of brand which is sort of how you come across to other people. And what you’re known for if you will and the work that I do in that particular area is around managing one’s brand because you have a lot of control over how people think about you and it’s It’s such a gift to know that because it.

Ashley

It can seem like well we can’t you know control Other people’s thoughts or whatever. But when you think about it. You really do have so many opportunities and touch points and ah places where you put information about yourself or meetings you attend or so many opportunities when you really think about it. To showcase what you want to be known for which can bring all kinds of opportunities from either promotions or even just getting into the right groups of people whether it’s colleagues or in your personal or professional life who have the same values as you. Ah, so so one of the things As an example, you let’s say you’re in sales but you really want to be known more for marketing Well which meetings are you included on and not included on. Are you. Are you in the marketing meetings If not, you probably want to get in on them because people can’t read your mind. Um, you have to showcase what you want to be known for. Are you on the emails on that topic if not how can you be copied on them or you know how do people introduce you. Or what do they talk about when you’re not in the room if they say oh everybody was talking about you the other day. They just said what a blank you are well whatever the blank is that’s your brand and I just love that the blank doesn’t have to stay where it is. It can be whatever you want. Um, and there are so many opportunities to manage that.

Alexis

It’s interesting. Do you believe that when people know what their brand is it helped them to develop trust with people around them?

Ashley

I do and the reason why is because when we’re clear on what we stand for and what we value what we like and what we don’t like we naturally attract people who have those similar values and just to be clear I’m not advocating against diversity ah particularly of thought in this case because I think that that’s incredibly enriching. Um, but to develop. Trust you can you can have someone who’s very different than you but yet you both really value something like let’s say respect.

Ashley

And so you can you can develop a level of trust with them because you know that about each other whereas if you weren’t making that clear or you weren’t even sure yourself kind of what your brand was or what you care about then it’s pretty hard to find other people who share those same values.

Alexis

So showing who you are and being clear about the values that are important to you That’s building that trust, building that relationship at the at a deeper level in a way.

Ashley

Yes, yes, much deeper than you know we have the same job title or we live in the same neighborhood. It’s much more… It’s much deeper than that. It’s we we we care about the same things even though we may disagree on many other things. Ah, the core of who we are and what we care about is very similar and almost ironically I guess that actually opens up the opportunity to get to know people who are very different than you or who you might not naturally think that you would get along with or want to work with and yet you realize that. At the core you actually do value the same things and it becomes much easier to build trust that way.

Alexis

You mentioned diversity and the way you talk about the topic reminded me of a quote from Lincoln and I will paraphrase because I don’t remember it exactly but it’s something along those lines. It’s I don’t like that man much. I need to get to know him better.

Ashley

Yes I love that yes I want to jump up and clap I absolutely love that mentality I think you know I see it a lot in the personality work that I do I’m a Myers-briggs practitioner and there’s actually it’s not just something that I’m personally interested in the research shows that I’ve seen anyway that when you have that that completely different perspective on the same team working together your work product is better.

Alexis

Yeah I used MBTI before and other kinds of personality profile tools with teams and it’s really incredible to see that with some teams I worked with everybody was nearly on the same side of the of the disk or the quadrant or things like that and in other teamsm It was very very well-balanced.

Alexis

And you can see the result on what the team is able to do definitely. It’s quite incredible. You are using MBTI with teams.

Ashley

Oh yes, I think any personality assessment is very helpful because it’s it helps you understand yourself and how you’re different or similar to others and those insights are incredibly valuable. That particular one I find works best with teams because it looks at how clearly you prefer different ways of taking in information and making decisions about that information or coming to conclusions about it and if you think about those things taking in information and making decisions with that information is that not what teams do all the time and so it really sort of gets to the core..

Alexis

Um, yeah.

Ashley

You know where we get conflict in teams and to your point without fail when I have a team that is more similar of thought and personality type. They have the same blinds spots they get along great. They enjoy each other’s company and they get things done very quickly because they all agree on everything but they also have the same blind spots and so when you have the team that is less similar. They tend to come to me because they’re having either communication or conflict issues and when we break it down. It’s really a very touching moment really in this corporate setting where you wouldn’t expect it to be touching. But once we get all of the personalities sort of up on the screen and we start to just see the bigger picture of how we’re different and how we need each other. You just see the light bulb go on where it’s not just oh I don’t like that person because they’re not like me or they don’t think like me or they’re always so annoying you start to realize not only why they’re like that. But how much you need that different perspective to do better work. It’s really cool. It’s a very cool moment.

Alexis

So when you have those people in the room when you help people collaborate or work with each other I can imagine that it can become really intense and could even reveal conflict. How do you handle conflicts and how do you help the conversation move forward?

Ashley

Yeah, it. So from that perspective it really comes down to helping both sides see the value that the other one is bringing. So for example with in this particular context with Myers-briggs I’ll often see a dichotomy between those who are very efficient and effective versus those who are very people oriented and empathetic.Not to say that we can’t be both It’s just for whatever reason I am coaching clients tend to go into those buckets and so with the ones that are very efficient and effective. Once we start looking at the yes that’s incredibly important and what a gift that strength is because you know the rest of us would never get anything done without you. Thank you at the same Time. Um. Listening is really important and developing those relationships actually becomes more efficient and effective in the long term because those people that you’ve built relationships with and that you’ve listened to really carefully want to work with you and go out of their way to work with you and trust you to your point earlier. Um. You know, whereas on the other side. Maybe if they’re really focused on building relationships and listening to people and being empathetic and if that’s their strength then they may not get as much work done as their colleagues would like them to and then they get this perception of something you know back to our point about personal brand. Maybe it’s a brand of they I don’t know aren’t effective or so. Whatever the brand is and it’s in those conversations. Ah, where you start to see that that person is not just ineffective or hard driving or whatever the perception is it’s when you start to see what their strengths are and why you need them that it’s not necessarily that you just love working with them because they’re so different than you but you start to get an appreciation for why you need that other perspective to get the job done Better. It’s in the combination that we succeed not in the collective blind spots where it’s more comfortable and more fun to be.

Alexis

Yeah, that’s really exciting because that gives a sense of where you are going how do you interact with people. When you when you are coaching them or when you are facilitating conversations. So I am I really like the way you are framing all that you have something very exciting coming I need to speak about that so you worked on the book for the last two years something like that right.

Ashley

Yeah, one year and a half!

Alexis

And so the book is coming ready right now.

Ashley

Um, it is we are hoping to target a mid-July publication date.

Alexis

Excellent. So tell us more about the book.

Ashley

Absolutely And I’ll tell you in the frame of putting the pieces together that we’ve talked about and how it translates into why I care about this topic because it’s a little bit different than what we’ve been discussing and the way that pieces tied together is that the book is About. It’s called the path to your career purpose. So finding purpose in one’s work is something I’m very passionate about the way that connects to what we were talking about earlier in terms of leadership and coaching and facilitation is that. I have a couple of beliefs one is that I believe we all have a career purpose something and what I mean by that is we have a set of unique passions. Things that we’re very passionate about doing. And also a unique set of talents or skills that we have sort of our tools in our toolkit to carry out those passions in the world and that no 2 people have the same combination of those 2 things. So It’s very one of my passions is bring whatever that is for any individual on the planet out into the world because what I’ve seen in my work is that too many people are doing work that just provides for the family or pays the bills and that’s very important I’m not diminishing the importance of that. But what I’ve found in my journey is that you can do both. You can pay the bills you can provide for your family. You can you know build the lifestyle that you need and want to have and do work that is incredibly fulfilling and so that’s that’s what the book teaches the reader to do is go from wherever you are today to living a life of the fulfilling work that I would call you what you were meant to do

Ashley

And again back to the connection to what we were talking about so that was one belief the second belief I have is that we all deserve to have good leaders waiting for us when we get to whatever that dream job is and in the book I talk about you’ll have many dream jobs over the course of your career. They’re just kind of one point along the journey. But when you get there. Whatever that is whether that’s being a stay-at-home parent. That’s a job whether that’s working in a corporate setting whether that’s nonprofit whatever that is for you retirement. Whatever your job is um I just think that we all deserve to have good leaders there who will help bring out the best in us and so that’s how those pieces connect is that I’m bringing out what these unique gifts and passions are out of people through this book and then and then I’m teaching workshops and doing executive and leadership coaching to help people become those leaders and again I don’t define that as having direct reports just taking care of other people. So when you get to that dream job using the methodology in my book. You have the supportive environment that you need to flourish in your work which is the name of my company.

Alexis

I Love it. So the okay the book is on my reading list. That’s absolutely critical so you convinced me I Love the energy I Love the passion about that and I understand way better now where you are saying a leader is someone who takes care of people I Love it.

Alexis

Thank you very much Ashley for joining the podcast today.

Ashley

Absolutely, it’s been my pleasure.