Author: Alexis

  • We’re living through a transformation, but do we have the tools to make sense of it?

    We’re living through a transformation, but do we have the tools to make sense of it?

    Robb Smith’s paper A Sociology of Big Pictures argues that we’re not just facing a set of isolated crises. We’re navigating a full-blown transformation age.

    An era where:

    – Disruption is the default.

    – Shared meaning is eroding.

    – We’re flooded with information but starving for clarity.

    And underneath it all, we face a metacrisis: ecological breakdown, sensemaking collapse, political volatility, and technological upheaval.

    The answer, Smith suggests, lies not in more noise, but in a new kind of seeing.

    He calls it the integrative worldview. A way of thinking that:

    – Welcomes complexity.

    – Embraces multiple perspectives.

    – Prioritizes collaboration, coherence, and compassion.

    What struck me most? It’s not just a theory. It’s a strategy.

    Smith outlines how integrative thinkers and communities can come together, intentionally and strategically, to create the conditions for this worldview to spread. Not as an ideology but as a shared inquiry. Not through domination, but through deep cooperation.

    It’s a hopeful blueprint for change and a direct challenge to those who believe a better future is possible but aren’t yet acting like it.

    Here’s the link to the paper: https://integrallife.com/a-sociology-of-big-pictures-network-strategy-for-a-21st-century-worldview/

    And here’s a conversation summary of the paper created with NotebookLM:

    Curious to hear your take. What resonates? What challenges you?

    #SystemsThinking #Leadership

    Here is the transcript of the conversation:

     Okay, so you’ve given us the sources for this deep dive and now, well, now we get to kind of pull out the good stuff, right? I mean, what are the really important ideas, the things that might actually change how you see the world? Yeah. You want to get right to the heart of it and, um, make it clear and fun along the way.

    Right? No one wants to wade through tons of dense writing. Yeah, absolutely. And, and the source you shared today, it takes us into some pretty fascinating territory. I gotta say Rob Smith’s, um, a sociology of big pictures. Network strategy for a 21st century worldview. And, and this isn’t just some abstract philosophy, you know, it’s, it’s a look at how the world is changing right now.

    Like these huge shifts we’re all feeling. And it even lays out a plan, like a strategy for how one particular way of seeing things might actually gain some traction. Exactly. Yeah. So, so for you, our listener, we’re kind of on a mission here, right? We’re gonna try to unpack two big things. One, what Smith calls this transformation age, these massive shifts we’re all living through.

    And two. Why he thinks a collaborative network, like people working together in a very specific way could be the way forward.

    It’s like a roadmap for a new kind of thinking or a new way of being almost.

    Yeah, exactly. So by the end of this, you know, you should have a much clearer picture of like, what are these deep changes happening and what’s this?

    This idea about how we might actually respond. Pretty cool, huh? So let’s dive in.

    Let’s do it. So to, to start, we gotta kind of get a handle on this landscape. Smith is describing, he talks about this, um, this transformation age, and he puts a pretty specific starting point, like mid to late two thousands, the time when, you know.

    Smartphones and high speed internet really took off. Right. Just like

    everything changed around that time. Yeah. His,

    his argument is that that was the moment when like continuous and fundamental change was unleashed, and it’s in all these areas that, you know, used to feel pretty stable, like our economy, social structures, culture, even just the way we connect with each other.

    It’s, it’s almost like he saw the information, age reach, like a breaking point. Right. Like it had to change or, or something. Mm-hmm. He, he even suggested this earlier that the sheer volume of information could become. I don’t know. Destabilizing. It’s interesting, it brings up Margaret Archer, right? Mm-hmm.

    Her idea of a morphogenic society. What, what’s the core idea there?

    Yeah, so, so Archer, she argues that what makes our time different is that change itself becomes the dominant force change over stability. So it’s, it’s like this, right? Think of it like instead of society being, you know, relatively steady with just, you know, occasional disruptions, it’s like disruption is the steady state.

    Now

    change is the only constant.

    Exactly. And one of her big points is that, um, variety begets variety. So these aren’t just isolated things happening, you know, it’s, it’s like they create these ripple effects where one change leads to another and things start accelerating.

    So it’s, it’s like one shift triggers another and and the pace picks up.

    Doesn’t stop. Yeah. Yeah. And, and she also talks about this, um, this convivial logic of abundance that comes out of this. It, it sounds kind of optimistic actually.

    Yeah, well it is, but it’s also, it’s nuance. So as we create more ideas, more technology, more cultural stuff, the old way of doing things like competing over scarce resources, that starts to weaken.

    We see more shared resources, more collaborative creation, think open source software, creative commons, that kind of thing.

    Okay, so we’re better at sharing. Potentially, but there’s a downside,

    right? Right. This constant flux, it also has a cost. The shared values, the common understandings that, that kind of hold the society together, those start to fray,

    right?

    Because if everything is constantly shifting, how do we even agree on what’s, what’s real, what’s important? And and Archer also mentions these, um, these demi realities, these sort of like shared. Illusions or, or misunderstandings, you

    know? Right. And this is huge. It raises this question of like, how do we even make sense of the world if everything’s always changing and while novelty, you know, it can bring progress.

    It can also create new kinds of disconnection and reinforce the inequalities that are already there, these demi realities. It’s like people get persuaded to just accept superficial appearances is the whole truth.

    It’s like we’re, we’re losing our grip on, on what’s real and Smith. He adds this layer that these changes aren’t happening in isolation.

    Right. They’re occurring across multiple dimensions. He, he even mentions integral meta theory and it’s four quadrants.

    Yeah. He’s saying these changes aren’t just happening out there in the world. You know? It’s affecting us personally too, and in our relationships and our cultures and in the larger systems that we’re all a part of.

    It’s like change on all fronts, which is why I guess this multi-level view is important and this all leads to what? Smith along with others called the Metris.

    Ooh, yeah, the

    metris, it, it sounds heavy and probably for good reason,

    right? As Smith and others like Hedland and as Bern Hargins describe it, it’s, well, it’s this interconnected web of global problems, these wicked problems that seem almost impossible to solve.

    And they’re not separate. They, they arise together and they influence each other deeply. Smith, he identifies five key areas, and the first one is the meaning crisis.

    The meaning crisis, this feeling, it’s like a widespread feeling that you don’t have a clear purpose or a direction even with all the comforts and advancements of modern life.

    Right. The question of what’s the point? Yeah. It feels like that’s hanging in the air a lot these days.

    Yeah, and it’s like despite all our progress, you know, the. The grand narratives, these big stories that used to give our lives context and meaning. They’ve, well, they’ve kind of broken down. It leaves a lot of people feeling lost and then there’s the sensemaking crisis, or what he calls hyper reality.

    This is where it gets really interesting

    hyper reality. Yeah. He’s drawing on badri art here. Yeah. This shift from a real grounded world. Yeah. To this constructed like limitless. Hyperreal can, can you unpack that for us a little bit? Uh,

    yeah. So, so what Baldry Yard saw and Smith builds on this is how our signs and symbols, you know, our language, our images, especially online, how they, how they change over time.

    Like at first they reflect reality, right? Then they start to distort it and eventually they can actually become a kind of artificial reality in themselves. These signs create what he called ra, right? These artificial environments that can actually feel more real than what they’re supposed to be.

    Representing, it blurs the lines between genuine and, and manufactured.

    It’s like we’re living in this world of, of carefully constructed illusions. And Smith brings in alderman too. His idea of the algorithmic undertow. What’s, what’s that all about?

    Yeah, so, so Alderman, he points out how these personalized information feeds that we see online, all driven by algorithms, right?

    They create these, uh, these algorithmic tunnels, I think he calls them. We get channeled into these narrow pathways of information, and we become more and more isolated in our own little curated bubbles, and, and it makes it even harder to agree on anything on a shared understanding of the world.

    Which, you know, it makes sense when you look at the, the extreme partisan divisions and the decline in public trust.

    Mm. Smith even brings up those Pew Research Center stats from back in 2019 showing this massive drop in trust in government and it’s, it a huge shift and, and bore’s quote, you know, it really sticks with me too. We live in a world where there’s more and more information and less and less meaning, like mm-hmm.

    Having more information doesn’t necessarily make things clearer. It can actually just create more noise.

    Exactly. Constant change, overwhelming information and no stable framework to, to make sense of it all. It leads to this breakdown of shared understanding, and then of course we have the big one, the, the ecological crisis.

    The Anthropocene,

    right. The, the really big one. Global warming species loss, resource depletion. It’s, it’s almost too much to process.

    It really is. And Smith, he, he mentions that UN climate report with, with the record CO2 levels. Mm-hmm. You know, and then the serious risks of, of ecological and economic collapse, the warnings about a sixth mass extinction.

    It’s like species are disappearing at a, at an alarming rate. And then the IPCC, they say we need to make drastic emissions cuts and, and he points out that in a lot of ways, all the other crises, they’re connected to this one.

    Yeah. This one underlies ’em all and then we get to geopolitics with the great release sounds.

    Sounds kind of dramatic.

    Yeah. Well, Smith, he uses this term and it comes from the study of complex systems. You know, those systems that go through these cycles of growth and stability then collapse and then renewal. He’s arguing that the global order, the one that we’ve had since World War ii, largely led by the us it’s now in this phase of release or or breakdown.

    Mm-hmm. Because of all these internal pressures, the US is, you know, it’s pulling back from its traditional leadership role, which leads to this, this more multipolar world and a much less predictable one.

    So the old order is, is dissolving and we’re entering this, this period of greater uncertainty. And then the final.

    Piece of this meta crisis puzzle is the technological singularity, the rise of ai, artificial intelligence.

    And this isn’t sci-fi anymore. With the progress we’re seeing in ai. You know, we’re facing a future where non-human intelligence is gonna have a huge impact on, well, on everything, on how we understand information, how we address climate change, global politics, you name it, it affects everything.

    Yeah, it’s, it’s a powerful picture. Bit unsettling, to be honest. All these forces. Interacting and amplifying each other. It’s, it’s a lot. And, and this is where Smith kind of shifts gears, right? He starts talking about his proposed solution, the, the growth of what he calls an integrative worldview and a, a strategic effort to promote it.

    Yeah. So amidst all this talk of crisis, you know, he sees this potential positive development, this emerging integrative worldview. And, and he mentions that, uh, ner guard, headland, and Melin, they identify it as a fourth major type of worldview, right? Alongside the more traditional, modern and postmodern ones.

    Okay. A fourth one. And we haven’t even really defined worldview yet, have we?

    Not really. No. So he brings in definitions from, from Hi and Rabi.

    Okay. Let’s do it. What is a worldview then, in this context?

    Okay, so according to, hi, it’s basically the, the fundamental assumptions we have about. About reality, like the lens through which we make sense of everything.

    And karbi, he adds that a worldview takes care of something. It it helps us navigate life, you know, and meet our needs.

    Okay, that makes sense. So it’s how we see the world and how we use that understanding to, to live in the world.

    Exactly. And, and Smith’s point is that for this integrative worldview to really work.

    To really take hold. It has to show that it can address our current problems better than the dominant modern worldview, which he says is often too focused on material things and breaking things down into smaller and smaller parts, and on competition and individual game rather than the whole picture.

    Okay. So Smith’s clearly a big proponent of this, this integrative worldview. What does he see as its main strengths? What does it offer that, that the others don’t?

    Well, in short, he says it’s the first worldview to really take into account like the full complexity of being human. You know, it draws on all the knowledge and wisdom that we’ve accumulated across cultures and throughout history to create a picture of reality that’s both scientifically sound and spiritually meaningful.

    He says it’s something that can liberate us because it recognizes the inherent value of reality and our role in it. It integrates different perspectives into a larger whole. It’s, it’s driven by. Compassion, ethical considerations. It’s sophisticated in its approach to knowledge and it’s, it’s constantly questioning and refining itself.

    Sounds pretty ambitious. Mm-hmm. And his strategy to, to help this worldview spread, it involves all these different meta trite movements, right? Mm-hmm. Like meta modernism, integral philosophy, parts of the intellectual deep web. Mm-hmm. He suggests they need to, uh, cohere around core principles, what he calls them, minimal integrative worldview, and, and then start working together strategically.

    Right. Exactly. He sees these different groups as already sharing a lot of the same underlying assumptions, even if they use different language or have different areas of focus. And his grand strategy, it’s. It’s basically a call for the leaders in these movements to connect intentionally, to figure out those shared foundational beliefs that that minimal integrative worldview, and then to coordinate their efforts to get more attention for their ideas in the wider world.

    Because in today’s information environment, that’s, that’s everything, right? It’s all about attention. Who, who gets it and who keeps it. And this leads him to, to look at the, the history and sociology of, of how ideas spread, drawing a lot on the work of Randall Collins.

    Right. And what’s really interesting is, is Collins’ argument in his book, um, the Sociology of Philosophies, that it’s not necessarily the objectively best ideas that went out, but, but the ideas that have the most effective networks of people promoting them.

    So it’s about community as much as about individual brilliance.

    Exactly. He emphasizes this really critical role of intense interaction within these networks. He talks about these interaction ritual chains, which generate shared emotional energy and sacred symbols that really bind people together.

    It’s like a shared understanding, a shared feeling.

    And Colin sees the intellectual landscape as as a kind of competitive arena too, right?

    Definitely. Idea systems. They’re like different species in a way. They differentiate to stand out or they integrate with others to build on success. Collins argues that these lines of opposition, where, where thinkers define themselves in contrast to others, those are actually key market opportunities for intellectual advancement.

    He even suggests that the most impactful ideas often create new problems, new questions for, for future thinkers to tackle.

    That’s, that’s an interesting way to look at it. Creating new problems can be, uh. A sign of a really powerful idea. Yeah. And Collins also talks about how the larger social and cultural context like shapes, how these ideas develop.

    There’s this interplay between traditional and innovative ways of thinking,

    right? Right, right. He talks about those periods that value establish knowledge and those that prioritize new discovers. And he examines this dynamic between what he calls a fractionation, where thinkers emphasize what makes them unique and synthesis.

    Where they, they form alliances and combine ideas, especially when there’s this, this confusing array of different viewpoints out there. And, and he even points out that sometimes, you know, weaker organizational structures can lead to greater intellectual consolidation and collaboration. Like, like we saw with the philosophical schools after Atkins fell.

    So the historical context, it matters a lot. And, and this brings us to Collins’ Law of small numbers. Yeah. Right. The idea that there’s only so much attention to go around, he suggests that. At any given time, there might only be like three to six really major intellectual systems competing for that attention.

    Right. But, and, and this is a big but Smith points out that the attention landscape today, it’s way more complex than in the past. I mean, we have science universities, social media, and now ai, it’s. It’s much harder to get noticed.

    Which brings us back to Smith’s grand strategy, right? Yeah. These six steps he thinks are essential for the integrative worldview to gain traction.

    The first one is to, uh, crystallize a minimal integrative worldview. What, what does that even mean?

    So it’s about finding those essential, non-negotiable principles that, that all these teal plus movements can agree on. He gives examples like the idea that reality has different levels of organization, that our understanding always comes from a specific perspective, and that it, you know, it evolves over time.

    The idea that the universe has an inherent value, a commitment to freedom and, and rational thinking. It’s, it’s about that common ground.

    So finding that shared foundation. And then the second part of the strategy is to. Um, compete for attention, and it’s, it’s a pretty bold goal. He wants to be one of the top four global worldviews by the middle of the century.

    He even sets targets for followers and financial support by 2030.

    Yeah, it’s ambitious. He, he knows they have to actively fight for public awareness. The third element is to, uh, tell a true, more deeply meaningful story to, to create a narrative that that. Emphasizes wholeness and transcendence to really focus on the inherent value of being human.

    He mentions ideas like pantheism and non-dualism,

    so offering an alternative to the, um, more fragmented or or materialistic stories that are out there.

    Exactly. The fourth component is to, uh. Build an autopoietic network.

    That sounds, that sounds pretty technical.

    Yeah, well, it’s basically about building a network that can sustain itself, you know, like an ecosystem.

    It’s not just about sharing ideas, it’s about developing a shared energy, shared rituals and symbols, things that that resonate emotionally. It’s about fostering those strong self generating connections between all these different teal plus communities.

    Okay. So it’s more than just just sharing ideas.

    It’s about building community. And the fifth element is to embrace huge problems to actually try to solve those big global challenges,

    right? And by focusing on those real world serious problems, the network can show its relevance, you know, attract people, attract funding. And the final component is to, uh, develop proprietary tools to, to create resources and technologies that actually embody and advance the knowledge of the integrative worldview.

    So put those ideas into action, build something tangible, and, and he intentionally leads the specifics of how to do all of this kind of open-ended, right?

    Yeah. He says that the practical steps, they’ll emerge as the network develops, but the, the core principle is, is commitment, right? Commitment to participation and collaboration to solving these real world issues.

    And this leads into his concept of an integrative knowledge economy.

    Okay. So what’s, what’s an integrative knowledge economy then?

    So he argues that attention is crucial for a worldview to spread, right? Because attention brings cultural influence. It offers a, a, a compelling vision that people can connect with, something that can shape their identity.

    He also highlights the importance of a strong institutional core, things like transformative educational initiatives to really transmit the potential of this worldview. Any. Specifically mentions the Institute for American Metaphysics or IAM and their focus on human development in their projects.

    Okay, so attention gets people in the door, but then you need that deeper work of education and and institutions to really make it stick,

    right?

    He talks about this cyclical relationship. You gain attention, then people adopt the ideas that leads to innovation, which then informs education and the development of institutions,

    and it just keeps building ideally. And he mentions. Jurgen Ren here. His idea of a system of knowledge with this interconnected set of.

    Models and arguments. And practices.

    Yeah. And Smith imagines how the integrative worldview could develop its own really robust and coherent system of knowledge.

    And, and he connects that to habermas ideas about how societies learn and, and generate new knowledge. And this, this idea of cognitive surplus.

    Mm-hmm. Like all this intellectual potential that could be used to solve problems if we could just. Figure out how to, how to channel it.

    Exactly. And, and Ner guard, Headland and Melin, they, they offer this vision of a, of a better society, a protopian society that’s fostered by this diverse, yet interconnected group of thinkers and organizations.

    And they emphasize this, uh, collaborative meta praxis of. Big picture thinking. Hmm. Engaging in dialogue, understanding different perspectives, generosity with ideas, self-reflection, fostering these, these intellectual friendships, you know? Oh yeah. And working on shared projects,

    creating the right conditions for these ideas to grow.

    Yeah. And Ren, he also outlines three key types of knowledge for the 21st century. Right? There’s system knowledge, which is the overall understanding of how things work. Yeah. Then there’s transformation, knowledge, how to bring about change, and then orientation, knowledge, the the ethical and moral compass,

    and.

    Those types of knowledge, they align really well with the aims of the integrative worldview. Ren says that this knowledge needs to be put into practice in research and education and public discourse, even political action. And Smith also points to I AM’s model for creating social impact. They start with an idea, then develop a toolkit.

    I. Then implement a program and ultimately establish an institute.

    It’s like a step-by-step guide to, to taking these ideas and making them real in the world. And, and this leads to this idea of exploring a social collaboration protocol. Yeah. Right? Like a framework for all these different, these meta communities to work together.

    Right. It’s about building this basic but strategic common ground for spreading this integrative worldview through this network of, of related communities. And the big goals are still the same, to to gain attention and to build this, this self-sustaining network.

    And he mentions that, you know, this protocol could take many forms.

    It could be a constitution, an agreement, an association, even a DAO.

    Yeah. But the key is that it needs to unite members around the shared values and coordinated action. And he suggests starting small, focusing on what people actually care about, solving real problems for the leaders in these communities, and building trust over time.

    He even mentions Eleanor Ostrom and her research on how groups successfully manage shared resources,

    right? And, and he highlights those factors, you know, like, who gets to make decisions, do the members have similar goals, that kind of thing. And, and he also cautions against two big mistakes, one. Putting too much faith in technology because networks are ultimately about human relationships, about trust and shared norms.

    And two, over-engineering the system. Too much complexity can really backfire, and he includes a whole table with all these strategic considerations for the protocol. You know, covering things like how to deal with factions, competing for attention, leveraging those network effects and, and how to ensure it’s sustainable in the long run.

    Sounds like a, a blueprint for building a successful movement. But of course, there are objections, right? People who might be skeptical. One big one is, well, what’s to stop this integrative worldview from becoming another rigid ideology that that could be used to justify harmful things.

    Yeah, he, he acknowledges that risk, and he talks about his own past warnings about the dangers of believing that.

    Simply growing and influence is, is automatically good and the potential for those judgmental attitudes to emerge. He says that the, the experienced leaders in this network, they need to be aware of that and develop clear communication and educational structures to, to avoid those pitfalls. He also talks about how as the network grows, there will inevitably be these more structured projects that emerge and, and then it becomes crucial to differentiate between oppressive forms and, and liberating forms.

    Mm-hmm. And he argues that the integrative worldview should, should always aim for the latter, you know, through its emphasis on these different perspectives and on ethical practices. And even touches on this, this ongoing debate about how critical they should be of, of those older worldviews. And he admits that he.

    He leans toward a clear call for, for positive development.

    And then there’s this whole issue of, of disagreements, right? Like even within the integrative worldview, there are gonna be differences in how people interpret things. Yeah. And getting diverse groups to cooperate effectively. That’s. That’s a challenge.

    Yeah. Huge challenge. And, and Smith, he gets that. He emphasizes that the network needs to actually model the kind of world they’re trying to create, like a world that’s not based on competition. And he highlights the level of maturity that’s required of the leaders. He calls it, um, turquoise Plus thinking.

    This ability to hold multiple perspectives to appreciate. Different but related theories without, without getting too attached to one specific version. The goal is to bring together leaders who, who agree on those core principles of the minimal integrative worldview and create a collaborative framework that respects intellectual diversity.

    And then there’s the last big objection, this tension between. The desire for unity and collaboration. This we aspect and, and the need for those individual movements to keep their own unique identities, their own autonomy. Like why should they all come together?

    Yeah. And he frames this as, as this fundamental challenge in human organization.

    I. Finding that balance between working together and maintaining individual agency and, and he reminds us of that problem of fragmented attention. You know, it’s really hard to get people to focus on something as important as this worldview that, that he believes we desperately need. And while you know.

    He acknowledges that positive change might just happen organically over time. He argues that those who have the ability to act, to really do something, they have a responsibility to be intentional.

    So it’s about about taking action, not just waiting for things to happen.

    Right. And the challenge he says is finding that right level of agreement.

    On those core principles to, to amplify the signal, while still allowing for those diverse interests and approaches. He even suggests the IETF, the, the group that, that manages the technical protocols of the internet as a model for how to build that collaborative governance structure.

    So to kind of sum it all up, you know, the key takeaway from Smith’s analysis is that, well.

    We’re in a time of these really profound, interconnected crises, and we need a new way of understanding the world. We need an integrative worldview, and for that worldview to have any impact, you know, those who, who believe in it, they have to collaborate strategically. And a big part of that is, is getting attention, getting noticed in this, this very noisy, crowded world of ideas.

    Exactly understanding this framework. It gives you, our listener, this valuable way to, to interpret these challenges that we’re all facing. It’s, it’s a proposal for how a different future might actually be shaped intentionally.

    It’s about making a conscious effort to, to change the future of knowledge and, and meaning in the world.

    And for you, as you think about all this, I mean. Consider this, what role might you play, you know, in, in the emergence of these new ways of seeing the world or in the formation of these collaborative networks? Even if you don’t see yourself as a leader, necessarily, think about the challenges that you’re facing in your own life, and whether this idea of, of an integrative perspective, whether that resonates with you.

    Hmm. Whether

    it helps you make sense of, of what’s happening. It’s definitely something to think about.

    It really is.

  • The Secret to OKRs That Actually Drive Impact

    The Secret to OKRs That Actually Drive Impact

    This month, let’s discuss Impact Mapping as the best way to create OKRs. If you’ve ever struggled with setting measurable, outcome-driven objectives, this approach is a game-changer.

    Too often, teams treat OKRs as just another to-do list—a collection of tasks rather than a framework to drive meaningful change. But what if we shifted the focus? Impact Mapping, created by Gojko Adzic, helps teams craft OKRs directly linked to business and user outcomes, making them more actionable and effective.

    Impact Mapping: The Best Approach to OKRs

    Unlike traditional goal-setting methods, Impact Mapping ensures that every OKR starts with why before moving to what and how:

    1- Define the Goal – What problem are we solving?
    2- Identify the Actors – Who influences the outcome?
    3- Determine the Impact – What behavior changes will lead to success?
    4- List Deliverables – What actions or features will drive those changes?

    📽️ See it in action – I created this video using Narakeet (one of Gojko’s products!) to showcase how Impact Mapping translates strategy into focused execution.

    OKRs in Focus – Insights from Experts

    To deepen our understanding of OKRs, I’m excited to revisit three episodes of Le Podcast on Emerging Leadership, each offering a unique perspective on how to set and execute OKRs effectively.

    🎙 Build a Product with Gojko Adzic
    Gojko shares his practical approach to building impactful products, emphasizing:
    – How to avoid waste in product development
    – The importance of measuring what matters
    – How Impact Mapping clarifies OKRs by focusing on outcomes over outputs

    🎙 Radical Focus with Christina Wodtke
    Christina Wodtke, the author of Radical Focus, discusses:
    – Why clear goals, roles, and norms matter in high-performing teams
    – How exploratory OKRs drive innovation
    – The role of accountability groups in making OKRs successful

    🎙 All About OKRs with Bart den Haak
    Bart den Haak, the author of Moving the Needle, brings over a decade of experience using OKRs in organizations, sharing:
    – The difference between OKRs and other goal-setting frameworks (4DX, MBOs, Balanced Scorecard)
    – Where to start with OKRs and common pitfalls to avoid
    – How OKRs push teams out of their comfort zones while avoiding burnout

    Bringing It All Together

    By combining Impact Mapping, Radical Focus, and OKR best practices, you can create objectives that:
    – Align with strategy rather than just listing tasks
    – Focus on measurable, high-impact changes
    – Encourage collaboration and adaptability
    – Help teams continuously refine and improve their approach

    So, as you refine your OKRs for the next quarter:
    – How could Impact Mapping help you define more meaningful objectives?
    – What behaviors need to change to achieve your key results?
    – Are you using OKRs to drive learning and innovation, not just performance tracking?

    Let’s discuss! Share your experiences and thoughts—I’d love to hear how OKRs and Impact Mapping have influenced your approach to leadership.

    Wishing you a focused and high-impact month!

  • The Leadership Power of Recognition: Are You Using It Effectively?

    The Leadership Power of Recognition: Are You Using It Effectively?

    This month, I want to explore a fundamental yet often overlooked aspect of leadership: recognition and its impact on motivation and team dynamics. Inspired by Eric Berne’s Transactional Analysis, the concept of recognition strokes helps us understand how the way we acknowledge or critique others influences engagement, trust, and leadership development.

    The Four Types of Recognition Strokes

    1. Positive & Unconditional – Appreciation for the person as they are.
      Example: “I appreciate you.” “I enjoy working with you.”
    2. Positive & Conditional – Praise for a specific action or achievement.
      Example: “Great job on this project!” “I admire how you handled that challenge.”
    3. Negative & Conditional – Constructive feedback directed at an action, not the individual.
      Example: “This approach didn’t work, let’s find a better one.” “I didn’t appreciate how you handled that meeting.”
    4. Negative & Unconditional – Criticism aimed at the person rather than their behavior.
      Example: “You’re difficult to work with.” “You never do things right.”

    How we recognize and challenge others matters. A culture where positive, constructive recognition is the norm fosters engagement and creates a safe space for leadership to emerge at all levels.

    Redefining Leadership – A Conversation with Russ Laraway

    I enjoyed welcoming Russ Laraway on Le Podcast on Emerging Leadership. Russ is a distinguished leader with 30 years of experience at Google, Twitter, and Candor Inc. Russ shares key insights from his book, When They Win, You Win, offering a fresh, results-driven perspective on leadership and career development.

    Key Learnings from Russ Laraway:

    ✅ Leadership Behaviors Drive Success

    • Focus on a small set of measurable leadership behaviors that predict engagement and performance.

    ✅ The Three Buckets of Leadership:

    • Direction: Clear goals and expectations.
    • Coaching: Ongoing support and feedback.
    • Career: Meaningful conversations that align personal and professional growth.

    ✅ The Career Conversations Framework:

    • Life Story Conversation: Uncovering values and pivotal experiences.
    • Career Vision Statement: Helping employees articulate their dream job.
    • Career Action Plan: A structured roadmap to achieve career goals.

    ✅ Retention and Work-Life Balance

    • Employees stay where they feel valued. Investing in their careers fosters trust and reduces turnover.
    • Prioritization is key—subtracting non-essential work creates a sustainable work-life balance.

    Leaders who actively shape career paths and acknowledge growth create organizations where people thrive, innovate, and stay engaged.

    What This Means for You as a Leader

    • Are you intentional about how you recognize and challenge your team?
    • How can you integrate career conversations into your leadership approach?
    • What shifts could you make to lead through recognition and conscious development?

    Let’s continue this conversation—share your thoughts and experiences, and let’s work towards building leadership environments where people feel seen, valued, and empowered to grow.

  • Psychological Safety: The Key to Collaboration and Innovation

    Psychological Safety: The Key to Collaboration and Innovation

    This month, we focus on a cornerstone of high-performing teams and transformative leadership: psychological safety. In a world where uncertainty and complexity are the norm, creating environments where individuals feel safe to speak up, take risks, and be themselves is no longer a luxury—it’s a necessity.

    Psychological safety, as defined by Amy Edmondson, Novartis Professor of Leadership and Management at Harvard Business School, is “a shared belief that the team is safe for interpersonal risk-taking.” In her groundbreaking book, The Fearless Organization, Edmondson emphasizes that psychological safety is not about being nice or avoiding conflict. Rather, it’s about fostering a culture where people feel empowered to share ideas, ask questions, and admit mistakes without fear of embarrassment, rejection, or punishment.

    When psychological safety is present, teams thrive. They innovate more effectively, learn from failures, and collaborate with trust and openness. Edmondson’s research shows that psychological safety is a key driver of performance, especially in environments that require creativity, adaptability, and continuous learning.

    Google’s Project Aristotle, a multi-year study on team effectiveness, underscores the critical role of psychological safety in high-performing teams. The study, which analyzed hundreds of teams across the company, found that the most important factor distinguishing successful teams was not individual talent, seniority, or even clear goals—it was psychological safety. Teams, where members felt safe to take risks, share ideas, and be vulnerable, outperformed others consistently.

    As highlighted in The New York Times article, What Google Learned From Its Quest to Build the Perfect Team, Google discovered that the best teams were those where everyone had an equal voice and where interpersonal trust was high. For more on Google’s findings, you can explore their Guide to Understanding Team Effectiveness.

    But how do we build psychological safety? Timothy Clark, author of The 4 Stages of Psychological Safety, provides a practical framework for understanding and cultivating this critical dynamic. According to Clark, psychological safety is not a binary state but a progression through four stages:

    1. Inclusion Safety: At this foundational stage, individuals feel accepted and valued for who they are. They believe they belong and are treated with dignity and respect.
    2. Learner Safety: This stage encourages curiosity and experimentation. Team members feel safe to ask questions, make mistakes, and learn without fear of judgment.
    3. Contributor Safety: Here, individuals feel confident to contribute their skills and ideas. They believe their input matters and that they can make a meaningful impact.
    4. Challenger Safety: The highest stage of psychological safety, this is where individuals feel safe to challenge the status quo, voice dissenting opinions, and drive change without fear of retribution.

    Clark’s framework reminds us that psychological safety is not a one-time achievement but an ongoing process. It requires intentional effort from all team members, whatever their roles, to create and sustain an environment where people can move through these stages and reach their full potential.

    Reflections for Leaders:
    – How are you fostering inclusion safety within your team? Are there individuals who may feel excluded or undervalued?
    – Are you creating space for learner safety, where mistakes are seen as opportunities for growth rather than failures?
    – How can you encourage contributor safety, ensuring that everyone feels their voice is heard and valued?
    – Are you open to challenger safety, where team members feel empowered to question assumptions and propose new ideas?

    As leaders, we have the power to shape the cultures we lead. By prioritizing psychological safety, we not only unlock the potential of our teams but also create organizations where people can thrive, innovate, and achieve remarkable outcomes.

    Call to Action:
    I encourage you to reflect on your own leadership practices and team dynamics. Where can you take steps to enhance psychological safety?

  • Optimizing for the Unexpected – Insights from Gojko Adzic on Lizard Optimization

    Optimizing for the Unexpected – Insights from Gojko Adzic on Lizard Optimization

    ome of the most valuable product signals do not come from your roadmap, your user interviews, or your strategy workshops.

    They come from the weird stuff. The edge cases. The misuses that look irrational at first glance.

    In this episode of Le Podcast on Emerging Leadership, I welcomed back Gojko Adzic, one of the most influential voices in modern software development, named an AWS Serverless Hero (2019) and author of Impact Mapping, Specification by Example, and his latest book Lizard Optimization.

    Gojko’s core idea is simple and powerful: pay attention to unexpected behavior, because it often reveals hidden opportunities.

    He calls these unexpected users “lizards”.

    Not because they are wrong, but because their behavior looks non rational from the perspective of the product team.

    And that is exactly why they matter.


    Lizards are not a problem

    They are a signal

    A key story from our conversation comes from the early days of PayPal.

    The founders built a PalmPilot based solution and expected the product to live there. Users, however, started using a rough web demo in a different way. Product managers initially fought the “misuse”. Eventually, the numbers made the truth unavoidable: the web path had massive adoption compared to the PalmPilot path.

    The lesson is sharp:
    If you fight users to protect your original vision, you might miss the market that is trying to adopt your product.

    This is what Gojko means by lizard optimization:
    Identify misuse, then decide whether it is a threat to block or an opportunity to amplify.


    The LZRD loop

    A practical method to work with the unexpected

    Gojko describes a four step approach that is easy to remember because it spells LZRD.

    Learn
    Observe and collect unusual behavior. Not with judgment, with curiosity.

    Zoom in
    Most weird signals are noise. Some are gold. Pick one behavior that is meaningful enough to explore.

    Remove obstacles
    Users often “misuse” a product because the product blocks the outcome they want. Remove friction that prevents valuable usage.

    Detect unintended impacts
    Even good fixes can create new problems. Watch what happens after changes, and be ready to adjust.

    What I like about this loop is that it complements user research. It helps you discover unknown unknowns. Things you would not think to ask about.


    Two examples that make it real

    Subtitle files in a text to speech product
    Gojko noticed users uploading subtitle files. That looked odd until he understood the job to be done: creating synchronized audio tracks for video content without manual editing. A small change unlocked a valuable use case for a specific segment of customers and delivered outsized business impact.

    VAT number friction and unintended impact
    Gojko tried to remove a payment obstacle by changing where VAT information was collected. The result was fewer payments. The fix made sense logically, but broke expectations for a subset of users. The mismatch reduced conversion.

    This is why the last step, Detect unintended impacts, is not optional.


    Mismatch beats blame

    A concept that fits extremely well with lizard optimization comes from Kat Holmes’ book Mismatch.

    Instead of saying “users are stupid”, treat issues as a mismatch between:

    • the user’s situation, expectations, or capabilities
    • and the product’s design

    This framing keeps teams humble and productive. It also opens the door to solutions that improve the product for many users, not only for the one strange case.

    Solve for one, expand to many.


    From products to organizations

    Watch the desire lines

    Gojko connects this to a broader idea: desire lines.

    In physical spaces, desire lines are the paths people naturally take across the grass when the official paths do not match how they actually move.

    In organizations, desire lines show up when:

    • teams route around processes
    • workarounds become common
    • people find unofficial paths to get work done

    As a leader, these are not annoyances to punish by default. They are signals to examine:
    What obstacle are we creating
    Is it intentional
    If not, what would it take to remove it


    The humbling truth

    Most ideas do not create value

    Gojko ends with a message that is both uncomfortable and liberating.

    Data from large scale experimentation at companies like Google and Microsoft suggests that a majority of changes do not create measurable value. Many ideas fail.

    That is not a reason to stop innovating. It is a reason to test, learn, and stop bad ideas earlier.

    The competitive advantage is not having more ideas.
    It is discovering faster which ideas work.


    A question to take with you

    Where are your lizards today

    In your product, your customer journey, your team, your organization

    What looks like irrational behavior might be the clearest signal you have.

    Listen to the episode here or on your favorite platform.

    References Mentioned

    1. “Build a Product with Gojko Adzic” – An episode of Le Podcast on Emerging Leadership
    2. “Founders at Work” by Jessica Livingston – Stories of Startups’ Early Days
    3. Lizard Optimization by Gojko Adzic – Learn how to transform unexpected product usage into growth opportunities.
    4. Trustworthy Online Controlled Experiments by Ron Kohavi et al. – A foundational guide on using experiments to discover what truly works for users.
    5. Mismatch by Kat Holmes – Explore inclusive design and learn to recognize mismatches in user needs versus product design.

    Here is the transcript of the episode

    Alexis: [00:00:00] Welcome to Le Podcast on Emerging Leadership. I’m your host, Alexis Monville. And today, we are joined once again by a very special guest, Gojko Adjik. Gojko is a renowned author, speaker, and recognized leader in the world of software development. He’s been celebrated as one of the 2019 AWS Serverless Heroes, the winner of multiple prestigious awards, and the mind behind several influential books, including Impact Mapping and Specification by Example. In our last conversation, we dove deep into how to build a perfect product, how to avoid waste in software development, and explore the principles of impact mapping.

    Today, we are excited to discuss his latest book, Lizard Optimization. We’ll be unpacking the core ideas in the book, how they apply to modern software development, and what it means [00:01:00] for leadership in an evolving technological landscape. Welcome back to Le Podcast on Emerging Leadership, Gojko. How do you typically introduce yourself to someone you just met?

    Well, I say I’m Gojko, it’s like Beyonce, you know, it’s.

    Does it work really well? 

    Gojko: Oh, I guess so. I don’t know. I’ve never been in a situation where it doesn’t work because maybe people try to be polite to me. I’m a developer. I kind of build my own products. Now I write books mostly as a way of. Doing a brain dump so I can leave more space for other things. I stole that one from Henry Kniberg.

    He said, kind of, he likes to do a brain dump to free up shorter memory. I think upgrading RAM in my head would be really expensive. It’s cheaper to write a book. 

    Alexis: I love the way it’s said. I have to agree with that. When you try to write something, could be read by not [00:02:00] only you, but also by other people.

    It’s really good to help you structure your own ideas. 

    Gojko: Yeah, and it gets you to clarify things that might not be perfectly clear. It’s always fun. While I was writing this, my most recent ninth book, I was trying to hunt down some quotes in exact way, the way they were said. And I’ve realized that for years I’ve been doing conference presentations and quoting some people completely wrong.

    I misremembered it the way I read in the book, but then read actually what they said and kind of, the meaning is there. I, I didn’t misremember the meaning, but Really shame on me for misquoting people. So yes, you get to consolidate your thinking and really verify that it’s still correct. 

    Alexis: You spoke briefly about your latest book.

    The latest book is Lizard Optimization. I would probably not have picked that book on a shelf. I don’t know anything about lizards. I’m not [00:03:00] really keen to optimize any lizard. That’s 

    Gojko: your mistake as a leader. I think your job needs to be to watch out for lizards and support your product teams in optimizing for lizards.

    That’s incredibly important. 

    Alexis: So now you need to explain a little bit. You need to tell me what inspired you to write the book and what does that lizard mean? So what inspired me to write the book is 

    Gojko: a really crazy growth phase for one of my products where the usage increased by about 500 times in a space of 11 months.

    So that means that things that were weird edge cases that would happen once every two years now start happening every day. And the whole 11 months was a bit crazy and firefighting and things like that. But I’ve learned a lot and I wanted to pass on what I learned [00:04:00] to other people and maybe inspire them to investigate these things on their own.

    And a lizard optimization is in a sentence, figuring out how people are misusing your product. And then figuring out whether you want to support that kind of misuse in a more systematic way, whether that should be done, or whether you want to block it and prevent it. And both of these things are valuable.

    The one example I really like that’s not from my product, but I read this in a book called Founders at Work by Jessica Livingston. Was from a company where in late nineties, the company was started because some super, super smart people built some incredibly efficient cryptography algorithms. And they had a solution, but they didn’t have a problem.

    We built this now what then somebody said, well, these are incredibly efficient algorithms, so they [00:05:00] can run on low power devices because they’re efficient. They’re not going to spend battery too much. And PalmPilot was a popular low power device there. So they said, well, let’s run something on PalmPilot.

    What do you need encryption on a PalmPilot for? And they said, well, encryption brings security. You need security when, I don’t know, you’re transferring money. And then they build a system where you take your PalmPilot out of your pocket. I take mine and we bump it together. And money goes from my PalmPilot to yours.

    That was wonderful. That was magic. And it was all insane. They had trouble getting people to know about the mobile application and to use it. Late 90s was a time where web was becoming popular and they built a website to promote the Pornpilot app. So as a way of getting people to try it easily and experiment, they had this really horrible, very rough demo thing where you could use the website to transfer money to somebody’s Pornpilot account.

    And, [00:06:00] What people started doing is they were using the website not to transfer the money to somebody’s PalmPilot account, but to transfer the money to an account and opening it even without having PalmPilot devices. The product management was really furious with that because somebody was misusing their system.

    They were not using it for PalmPilots. They had nothing to do with their brilliant app, nothing to do with These efficient cryptographic algorithms that were running on low power devices, because it was all running through the website. And people even started using the trademarks and the names on forums, like, Oh, send me money, buy this or something like that.

    It kept fighting it. The product people kept fighting it. They were going in these forums and saying, you’re not allowed to use our name. We’ll sue you and fighting with the users. At some point, somebody looked at the numbers. The website had 1. 5 million active users and 12, 000 PalmPilot app installations.

    And somebody who can do mathematics basically said, well, [00:07:00] this PalmPilot thing is really not as popular as the website. So they kind of killed the PalmPilot app and the web app became PayPal. That today is known as PayPal. PalmPilot no longer exists. And we do have. Low power devices and things like that.

    And PayPal runs on mobile phones. And of course, you know, you can, I don’t know if you can transfer money by pumping it, I think that’s like a weird gimmick, but it’s used to transfer money all over the world by doing this PayPal pilot bump, you have to be next to somebody and you, now you can use PayPal to transfer money somewhere, halfway around the world in a different time zone.

    And I think that the really interesting lesson there is that the product managers fought against users for a very long time. They fought against this misuse. They fought against people actually trying to benefit from the product in a different way because it wasn’t consistent with their vision that they were trying to stay true to the vision, not true to solving the problem.

    And I think this is where people fall in love with the solution, not with [00:08:00] the problem. And, and I think that’s kind of one of the biggest issues product companies have. So I think as a leader of a company and your, uh, listen as a leaders. Helping your product, people like focus on solving the problem. Not loving the solution is really, really important and noticing when people are misusing your product.

    It becomes important both for unlocking growth and for understanding where the market wants this product to grow, because it opens up some incredible growth opportunities. If the PayPal stayed on the Palm Pilot app, they would have had 12, 000 users and that’s it. They would have never made a kind of a decent company out of it.

    And I think this is what becomes really interesting. Lizards in this terminology are people who do things that you can’t logically explain. It looks like it was done by somebody who’s not a rational human. They’re doing something you didn’t expect. They’re doing something you don’t want, but they are effectively misusing the system.

    Now they might be [00:09:00] misusing the system or trying to misuse the system in a good way or a bad way, but kind of figuring that out becomes, I think, critical for good product management. 

    Alexis: This is very interesting because yeah, you, you take the examples of product managers fighting against misuse of the product.

    Just noticing that something is going on is already something important. And I, when I read the book, I was there and was looking at that to say, Oh, I don’t know if I would have noticed that. And the example of that video that is blank. How would 

    Gojko: you even know? And that’s really an interesting thing. So, for example, one of the products built allows people to upload different types of documents and create an audio file using text to speech.

    So, when users do something unexpected, like trying to upload an unsupported file type, they will get a decent error message. I set a number of people every day that try to upload MP3 files into a text to [00:10:00] speech system. I don’t understand why you would do that, what you expect, how that would even work.

    Converting audio to audio, you’re not converting text to speech. It’s weird. There are people who try to upload Android package files every day. I, I don’t understand how you would do that, but occasionally there’s somebody who kind of does something potentially useful. Now, with the error message that people get, Oh, you know, you’re, you’re uploading something that is not text.

    We can’t read that. In addition to showing the user an error message, I get a message. I get a log message that I can expect that somebody did something I didn’t expect. Now, I started noticing a pattern, uh, about a year ago where people were trying to upload subtitle files. Subtitle files come with video files, they are subtitles for a movie or, or something like that.

    And, um, they’re text files, they’re not images, they’re not Android packages, they’re not [00:11:00] music, they are text files. So I thought, well, I didn’t expect this extension, but why not? I can just enable that extension in addition to txt and I enable that and then I started getting complaints from people saying that, uh, the system also reads the timestamps.

    Subtitle file said timestamps when to show certain text. Yeah, you’ve uploaded a file with timestamps. What the fuck did you expect? It’s, it’s kind of reading the timestamps. It reads the content. But yeah, I wasn’t expecting it to read the timestamps. I was only expecting it to read the kind of voiceover.

    I said, well, I can understand that. So it took me five minutes to just skip over the timestamps. And then people were complaining that it reads the text too slowly. It’s like, what do you mean too slowly? It is the text at the speed of it reading the text. I mean, and then I realized talking to people what they were trying to do actually, you know, in the jobs to be done category is they were trying not to just convert text to speech a step there.

    But what they were trying to do [00:12:00] is to create an alternate audio track for their presentation video. And instead of creating lots of short clips and then aligning them themselves, what they were hoping to do with the subtitle file is to get the whole thing synchronized. Now, it was, you know, logical. I see the value in doing that.

    It was a very tiny percentage of users doing it, but it was a small change. It was a technical challenge. It was interesting to do. So I did it. So in total, you know, we’re talking about two days of work in total, building on top, by far the most profitable thing I’ve ever done. By far, what happened later is that these features were discovered.

    Like there’s an American mega church where they have these sermons, religious lectures, whatever. And then they want to have them in all the languages on earth. And they’re using my system to. [00:13:00] Somebody types over the subtitles or I don’t know how they produce them, but then they just use the subtitles to create alternate audio tracks for the priests kind of preaching.

    There’s an enterprise software company that’s using this thing for all their instructional videos. To basically automatically get an alternate. So if you’re a, if you’re a video content editor, usually what you would have to do with this is either try to record your voice or get somebody to record short clips and then suffer through hours of placing the clip at the right place in the video, where with this thing, you get it almost instantly.

    And it saves you hours and hours and hours of time. And if you save somebody hours and hours and hours of time, they’re willing to give you some money for it. Especially if it’s automated, then they can do it at scale. So although this feature is used by like a tiny percentage of my users, it’s probably contributing a decent percentage of the revenue where the most kind of profitable customers we have on the tool are actually using it for that.

    [00:14:00] So that’s the value of. Lizard optimization. I would have never guessed this without monitoring for weird file types that people are uploading. And I would not have done it in user research because I would not be doing that kind of research. I would be interviewing people who need something else done.

    And I think lizard optimization is a wonderful way to complement customer research and user research and discover the unknown unknowns. You know, you can discover through customer interviews and user research, you can discover known unknowns. You kind of, you know what people want to do, but you don’t know the details and how important something is or what, but this is really helping us deal with the unknown unknowns.

    And this is really interesting because it can open up a completely new market segment. It can show you that people want to go in a totally different direction. And maybe you don’t know that. And you need to consider it. And I think that’s why I think this is [00:15:00] such a powerful method to use. 

    Alexis: It’s interesting because we can apply that in a lot of different things.

    So of course, when you’re building a product, it’s kind of obvious, but my temptation was to say, okay, how can I learn that someone is doing something unexpected? Because as you said, in user research, you’re coming with your own assumptions about what is going on and you’re asking questions, you try to validate your assumption, but there it’s way more powerful because basically you’re trying to be on the lookout on what is going on and what are those things that you can brush saying, Oh, those users are completely idiot or maybe they just have a brilliant thing that I can solve in two days of work.

    That’s very interesting. How do you see that? Do you have a, do you have a kind of structure to help people understand how it works? 

    Gojko: So I think the process itself, I’ve kind of nailed it down to four steps to use myself. And the four steps are easy to remember because they start with the letters LZRD, like lizard, [00:16:00] The first step is to learn how people are misusing your product.

    That’s the L, learn. Then the second step is to zoom in on one behavior change. You can’t change everything. And when you start looking for weird stuff, there’s a range of incredibly weird. We’ll never understand it to this kind of makes sense. And it’s going to be a lot of noise and we need to figure out the signal in that noise.

    The zooming in is the second step. The third step is to remove obstacles from users. And the, the software is placing obstacles in front of users and not letting them do something they wanted to do or the product. And that’s why they’re misusing it. Some obstacles need to be removed for them to be able to do that.

    And then the last step, the D. Is to detect unintended impacts because these people follow their own logic. They don’t necessarily follow my logic or your logic and our assumptions about how we’re going to fix the problem aren’t necessarily true. Like I said, my first idea was, okay, just [00:17:00] support the file.

    That’s okay. But then there was an unintended impact where people were starting to complain and we increased support because we were reading all the timestamps and things like that, lots and lots of times where I thought this is going to be a good idea. didn’t turn out to be spectacularly good. 

    Alexis: Can 

    Gojko: you 

    Alexis: give me an example about that?

    Gojko: Yeah, like in European Union, kind of, there’s like VAT numbers. So with VAT numbers, uh, you need to enter a VAT number for the receipt. And with the digital product, If you’re selling things to individuals, you have to charge VAT in the country where the individual is. If you’re selling to companies, you don’t charge VAT.

    They have to account for that using reverse charge magic and things like that. Now, without going too much into the accounting details, companies want to put their, or people purchasing for business, want to put their VAT number in. If they put a VAT number in and they’re doing it with domestic transaction, they’ll usually just put the number.

    But if they’re doing it in a foreign [00:18:00] context, they’ll put the country prefix. So FR 12345 is for France. And the payment processor I use is done by an American company. They don’t understand all of that. It’s too complicated for them. And they’re trying to validate these numbers. But very often they, even if you selected France and you entered one, two, three, four, five, it’s obviously the French one, two, three, four, five number.

    What they’ll tell you is, Oh, this is an invalid VAT number. It’s not, it just, you’re not storing it correctly. And I can’t do too much about their validation. It’s their validation. It’s third party product. But what happens is I had a percentage of a good percentage of people. People that go try to purchase, they enter 4, 5, this thing tells them it’s an invalid number, and they think it’s the card number, not the VAT number.

    So then they added the card number, it fails, it fails again, and, and, and, so a ridiculous number of people from European Union end up selecting Russia as their country because Russian VAT numbers don’t have a prefix. It is, it is ridiculous just to enter the thing to, like, [00:19:00] I’m placing an obstacle in front of them trying to pay me.

    This is idiotic. So I thought, well, you know, let’s solve this and all that can’t control the validation on, on the form. It’s done by the payment provider. I can remove the field altogether. And then when they pay, I can say, okay, now to get an invoice, give me a VAT number. And then I can say, well, you’re in France, obviously the prefix is FR.

    I did that. And then I measured where the people are paying me more. And it turns out people are paying me less. 

    Alexis: Uh, 

    Gojko: Uh, yeah, so unintended impact. So what had happened is I thought I’m going to solve it, but actually people that wanted to pay for the company, they go to the form where they couldn’t put in a VAT number and then they didn’t pay.

    They were confused. They, they expected a place to put a VAT number in, and the number of payments dropped significantly. So I had to kind of go back and, and, and do some other stuff there. So that’s kind of an example of an unintended impact where [00:20:00] something that’s, you know, to me as a maker sounds perfectly logical to a user might not, or to a user of a certain type might not.

    And this is where I absolutely love, you said users are not that smart and things like, I absolutely love this book by Kat Holmes called mismatch. Because she rephrased this whole thing. It’s not that the users are stupid or smart or whatever. It’s kind of, there’s a mismatch between the user’s capability and the software.

    Now, that mismatch might be something we want to do something about or not, but we need to understand it as a mismatch. There’s, uh, people that, Expect the VAT field to be there and the VAT field is not there. It’s a mismatch of expectations. People that the user interface is very complicated, a developer can use it, but a regular person who’s not a trained developer doesn’t follow that logic.

    You can blame the user for being stupid, or you can say there’s a mismatch between what the user is expecting, their experience, the software. [00:21:00] Likewise, there could be a mismatch. Like. Visual capabilities. You might have somebody who’s vision impaired. They can’t read small letters, or you might have somebody who’s sitting on a beach under direct sunlight, and there’s not enough contrast on the screen.

    There’s a mismatch between the user situation and the app and the solution. And I think identifying these mismatches allows us to then talk about Do we want to solve it? Do we not want to solve it? Do we care about it or not? I mean, I, maybe I can’t build an app that works fully for blind people, but I can make an app that works well with somebody who’s elderly and has bad vision.

    And if I do that, I will also make it so that people on the beach can read it or, or, you know, if they were in a dark environment or something like that. And, and, and Kat Holmes talks about how You don’t necessarily follow each of these really difficult edge cases because that economically doesn’t make sense, but you figure out how to solve that and at the same time improve the product for everybody.

    Alexis: [00:22:00] You have a small population of users that could be affected by that if you look at it from one angle, but in reality it will help a large group of your users. 

    Gojko: And you just think, yeah, you make a better product. Like, for example, a couple of years ago, we had a bug report for MindMap. MindMap is one of my products.

    It’s a collaborative diagramming mind mapping tool, and we had a bug report that it does not work well on a refrigerator. Okay, well, I mean, it doesn’t work well if you put it on a microwave as well. It’s not intended for that. It’s intended for computers, not for kitchen utensils. You have these weird things where people play Doom on a microwave screen or something like that.

    How did you get my software to run on fridge? That’s the first question. A woman who stayed home in the mornings to take care of her children, this was before COVID and work from home and things like that. Because our software requires a large screen, it’s kind of a [00:23:00] diagramming thing, uh, running it on a phone is not really an option, but keeping a laptop opening the kitchen when you’re cooking is also not necessarily the safest thing to do.

    You can damage quite expensive equipment doing that. So she actually had an Android screen on the fridge that had a browser, but you don’t load it up there, but the software just did not work without the keyboard. It required the keyboard to work. So it didn’t work that the problem is not that it didn’t work on a fridge.

    The problem is it was useless without the keyboard, really, because we never really thought about people using it without a keyboard. Or a pointer device or something like that. So instead of making it run on a fridge, which was pointless, one user in 10 years complained about that. We thought about, well, maybe there’s a whole class of people who are not at the keyboard at the moment.

    Maybe there’s a whole class of people who just need to observe rather than Participate, because she wanted to observe the collaboration that her colleagues were doing. Maybe [00:24:00] there’s some stuff we can do, like changing it from a floating toolbar with really small buttons to a really large toolbar with big buttons that you can control and things like that.

    So we iterated on that. And I think we came up with a much, much better UX design for the app in general, not just making it work a better on a fridge. So it works better, even if you have a laptop and a keyboard and a mouse, it still works better for you because we challenged ourselves to improve the UX.

    Alexis: Yeah, it’s, it’s very interesting. So that was one person trying to do something, but as a result, because you observe that very carefully, you realize that could affect and improve the product for basically all the users. It’s very interesting. It’s not only discovering new use cases or probably new personalized or new possibilities of development for the product.

    It’s really improving the product overall. So there’s, that’s another class of, uh, 

    Gojko: Kat Holmes has this principle in her book talks about solve for one, expand to many. And that’s really important [00:25:00] because especially if you look at kind of lizard behavior, these are like really, really weird things that go on, but solving and doing things for such weird edge cases, it’s never going to be economically justifiable.

    I mean, you can look at a product manager, looks at the weird edge cases. Well, this is like, 0. 1 percent of our users. I can’t spend time doing this. I have to spend time doing what 80 percent of the users expect, but it’s not about helping that 0. 1%. It’s about using that as signals that your software is placing obstacles in front of people and then figuring out, well, maybe there are some obstacles in front of other groups of people as well.

    Alexis: I love it. How would you translate that into other things than software development or building products? You have a leader or an emerging leader. How would you translate that in the realm of an organization or a team? 

    Gojko: Well, that’s an interesting question. You know, I think, uh, quite a related concept from outside of software is those kind of [00:26:00] desire lines, desire lines are from usability research and things that where you try to figure out, I think there was a story about this university where they built a new campus instead of trying to figure out where to put the.

    Walk paths and, and the roads, they just planted grass and let students walk around stepping on the grass. Then they figured where the grass was stepped on and built the pathways there instead of trying to predict where the pathways are going to go. I think from an organizational perspective, that’s something that we can figure out.

    What do we want? our employees to do? How do we want to support them? How as a leader can I support people in what they want to do, not what necessarily we think they want to do? I remember one kind of really weird case, maybe it fits into this, maybe it doesn’t, when I was working with hedge funds or small investment banks.

    Small in this case means about 3000 people. So not [00:27:00] massive international giant, but not a small company as well. And they had a couple of hundred developers and we were trying to help them improve the software process, but whatever we suggested, it wasn’t improving productivity because the bottleneck was somewhere else from the systems thinking perspective, the bottleneck was somewhere else.

    And then we’ve done a kind of figuring out where people feel that they’re wasting time. One of the things where lots of people felt they were wasting time was waiting for virtual machines to start. The morning, everybody comes at the same time and they had this recent policy where for business continuity reasons, they were not allowed to keep any data on their physical machines.

    Everybody had to use a virtual kind of remote Citrix. So everybody comes in at the same time. They kind of, you know, start logging on to this. They didn’t have enough capacity and they were waiting for something ridiculous, like 40 minutes in average for access to these things because it was new and imposed, people were complaining, but they were just getting shut down because it’s for [00:28:00] whatever, for reasons.

    The leadership introduced it and we realized, well, the introducing things like continuous delivery, test driven development, whatever, it doesn’t matter really, because your bottleneck is virtual machines and they were limited by the amount of hardware they had. But developers time in a financial institution in central London is quite expensive if you think about just in salaries.

    So we added up the money. We went to the CIO and we said, look. You are spending this amount of money every month on people just waiting for virtual machines to start. With this amount of money, you know how much hardware you can buy. Can we please use some of that money and buy more hardware for virtual machines?

    And then he said, of course we can, it’s logical, but why are people waiting for virtual machines to start? Like, why are developers doing that? So, there was a company wide policy, everybody has to use virtual machines, business [00:29:00] continuity. And he said, yes, everybody, like traders and not developers, like developers don’t store data on their machines anyway, it’s in version control.

    Okay. So you want to do, I said, well, it’s idiotic. Why are you just killing productivity from people? So there’s like a totally different desire line there. There’s a different path. And I think this is an example of the company misusing its own people. I guess because when they said everybody, they didn’t mean developers.

    So I think as a leader, it’s important to kind of figure out Both when misuse is happening in one way or another way, and where if you have people that are trying to treat the system in some way, do we want to actually support that or not support that? How do we figure this thing out? And if we’re placing obstacles in front of people, are those obstacles intentionally there because sometimes they are.

    Or those obstacles are [00:30:00] intentionally there and then they should be removed like this policy where basically, yeah, if you have version control, you don’t have to use a virtual machine. Makes total sense. 

    Alexis: So lastly, what would be the one advice you would give to your younger self? 

    Gojko: One advice I would give to my younger self, I think that would be in terms of just product building, not to trust that things I do actually have value.

    And to try to validate it. I think I’ve spent far too long in my career trusting that the things I do are actually good ideas. And very often they’re not. I’m not alone. I love Ron Kojavi’s latest book called Trustworthy Online Controlled Experiments. Here’s data from companies like Microsoft, Google, Slack, Netflix.

    The data says that kind of between one 10th and one third of things they do actually [00:31:00] delivers value. 

    Alexis: That’s okay. After that, you need to be a little bit more humble. Okay. 

    Gojko: That means that these people who are supposed to be industry leaders kind of Between seven out of 10 times, things that they think are good ideas are not necessarily good ideas.

    Alexis: Okay. 

    Gojko: They don’t, they don’t improve the product in a measurable way. And with something like that, I guess it’s really interesting to think as a leader or as a, as a product manager and executive supporting product managers, what brings value to the market so we can capture some of that value, uh, back because If we’re not delivering value to the market, then we can’t really capture the value back from the users.

    And if we can’t figure that out, then we can run circles around the competition because the bad news for most listeners that have never thought about this is that, well, I’m just going to stick the range in half there. So eight out of 10 things you do make no sense. But the good news is that eight out of [00:32:00] things your competitors do.

    If you can figure that out faster than the competition, you can create a much better product. And I think that’s why these companies are winning in the market, because they can figure that out and they can understand that they can measure it. They can stop bad ideas from progressing too far. 

    Alexis: This is very insightful.

    for sharing that. 

    Gojko: Trustworthy online control experiments. Wonderful book. Wonderful book. 

    Alexis: I will add the references in the companion blog post. Thank you very much for having joined the podcast, Gojko. 

    Gojko: Thank you!

  • Leadership as First-Time Founders: People First, Focus Always

    Leadership as First-Time Founders: People First, Focus Always

    Leadership looks different when you’re a first-time founder.

    There’s no handbook for the moments that matter most — the ones where you have to show up as a human, make a decision as a leader, and keep the company alive at the same time.

    In this episode of Le Podcast on Emerging Leadership, I welcomed Héloïse Rozès and Nikolai Fomm, co-founders of Corma, a startup helping companies regain control over their software tools and licenses. Corma’s mission is deeply practical: bring clarity to the SaaS “black box”, improve employee experience, and help IT teams manage access, cost, and risk — especially as new tools (including AI tools) keep multiplying.

    What I loved in this conversation is that it’s not theory. It’s leadership learned in motion.

    Here are a few ideas that stayed with me.


    Communication is not one skill — it’s many

    Héloïse describes communication as her biggest challenge — not because she dislikes it, but because it constantly changes depending on who is in front of you.

    Co-founders. Employees. Interns. Freelancers. Investors. Clients. People you meet at an event.

    Same company. Same reality. Different language every time.

    And as Nikolai adds, the CEO role amplifies this even more: you’re often “the voice” externally, and the internal team watches how you represent the company outside.

    Leadership forces an uncomfortable question:
    are we consistent across all the rooms we enter?


    People are the challenge — and the point

    Both founders put people at the top of the leadership challenge list.

    Not in an abstract way. In a very real, operational way.

    Héloïse shares a moment many founders face for the first time: an employee announcing a maternity leave. The human reaction is joy. The leadership reaction is also: how do we adapt?

    The tension is real and constant: you can be empathetic and still compute the consequences. That doesn’t make you less human. It makes you responsible.

    I appreciated how they name it clearly: balancing care and survival is part of the job.


    Prioritization is the art of saying “no”

    One of the most concrete leadership lessons Nikolai shares is the difficulty of saying “no”.

    In startups, ideas are everywhere — especially with creative, ambitious people. Many ideas are good. The problem is that resources are limited.

    If you do everything, you do nothing.

    Saying no is not rejecting creativity. It’s protecting focus.

    And Héloïse adds an important filter she uses: if an idea doesn’t connect to market value and impact (including revenue), it may be interesting — but not now.

    That clarity is leadership.


    Culture doesn’t happen — it is built

    Héloïse and Nikolai insist on something many teams forget: culture is not a poster. It is practice.

    They talk about culture in very concrete ways:

    • being on time (or even early)
    • being available to talk when someone needs it
    • celebrating small wins
    • avoiding “two companies” inside one (sales vs tech)
    • intentionally creating cohesion

    They also created a program called Cormacolindor — an ambassador-style ritual inspired by the origin story of “Corma” (a nod to the One Ring), designed to help new hires collaborate, build spirit, and shine individually.

    I like this because it’s not vague. It’s designed.


    Radical Candor: avoid ruinous empathy

    They use Radical Candor (Kim Scott) as a feedback foundation.

    And Nikolai makes a point that is worth repeating: for teams that genuinely care about each other, the biggest risk is not aggression — it’s ruinous empathy.

    When you care personally, you might hesitate to challenge directly.

    But not giving the feedback doesn’t protect the person. It delays the learning and increases the cost.

    Leadership is not being nice. Leadership is being helpful.


    Advice for first-time founders: don’t do it alone

    Their closing advice is simple and strong.

    You don’t learn leadership from a textbook. You learn it by doing — and by talking to people who have done it before.

    Héloïse suggests a practical move: list the leaders you admire and reach out. Nikolai adds that many experienced leaders are surprisingly generous with their time when the request is genuine.

    This is a great reminder: mentorship is often closer than we think.

    Listen to the Full Episode

    Tune in to learn more about the Corma journey, leadership insights, and practical advice for emerging leaders.

    Here is the transcript of the episode


    Alexis: [00:00:00] Welcome to the podcast on Emerging Leadership. I’m your host, Alexis Monville. Today, we have both Héloïse Rosas and Nikolai Faume on the show. They are both co founders of Corma, and they will explain a little bit what it is. Héloïse and Nikolai, it’s great to have you both on the show. Let’s start with some introductions.

    How do you typically introduce yourself to someone you just met? It’s 

    Héloïse: a good question. When I meet someone. So if this is like in an informal setting, I’m going to say, hi, my name is Héloïse. I’m working in Paris as a, as a founder. And then I’ll just see if the person is in a startup ecosystem or not before knowing how to introduce myself better.

    Alexis: Okay. Nikolai, how about you? 

    Nikolai: Yeah. So I would say that I’m also Nikolai, one of the founders of Corma and then yeah, maybe say a little [00:01:00] bit more about what I’m doing in life or at the company. And then usually it gets quite quickly to what we’re doing as a company. But yeah, I do it a bit like Héloïse, see a little bit, who do I have in front of me, so I don’t give like a minute monologue that the other person doesn’t really understand 

    Alexis: or wants to know. 

    Let’s say now I’m interested and I’m saying, okay, what is Corma about? What would you say? To keep it 

    Nikolai: short and spicy. I mean, usually people work with a lot of different software tools nowadays and it’s become so many, I mean, just think of all the new AI tools that are coming in. It’s becoming a mess for all the employees to understand, okay, where do I have access?

    How do I get access to a new tool? But it’s It’s messy for the company who needs to make sure you don’t pay for seats. Nobody is using your people are not signing up to dangerous AI tools and load up their entire company secret data to some weird AI company in China. It’s also a mess for the it team.

    And basically as Karma, we want to solve that by bringing everything together in one place, [00:02:00] providing a great employee experience. And at the same time, making the life easier for the company. 

    Alexis: Excellent. I love it. Héloïse, can you do it better? Just to check that, can you make it shorter just to put some competition between the two of you?

    Héloïse: Good. I mean, I’m lucky I got a bit of time to think about the question. Corma is the co pilot of your IT for handling licenses. So that’s how I put it in a sentence. People are like, okay, but what does it really mean? I simply tell them you’re a head of IT of 1000 people. You have to manage computers, Wi Fi, VPNs, and the little mouse of the, of the computers too, but also the softwares and what’s happening in the cloud.

    But when you look at the application park, that’s your software stack represents. It represents a budget of three million dollars. It’s a black box where you don’t know what the ROI is, and you have no clue of who has access to what at what hour and if it complains. So Corma solves that problem by being the cockpit of truth of your licenses.

    Alexis: Excellent. I love it. So [00:03:00] your boss, co founders, if I understood well, there’s a third one who is not in the room. 

    Nikolai: Yeah, it’s CTO. You know, they don’t like to talk to people too much. No, but he’s, it’s, it’s, no, that’s not true. It’s he’s called Samuel. He’s also very nice and sociable, but actually right now he’s on his well deserved honeymoon.

    So we try to leave him as much alone as possible. That’s why it’s only the two of us. 

    Héloïse: And 

    Nikolai:

    Alexis: love that you’re taking care of that and you’re, you’re paying attention to that. And that’s, that’s very cool. Okay. Your first time founders, how do you experience leadership? Nikolai, could you share your perspective?

    For me, it 

    Nikolai: was interesting because before I worked for two and a half years. in another startup and saw like some good growth there. And I always look at the founder, like whenever I didn’t know something, you obviously ask the founder and expect it’s like a bit of a wizard who knows the answer to everything and know that I I’m in this position myself.

    I know this is not necessarily true. So I see it as a challenge that you need to figure stuff [00:04:00] out that nobody did before you. Obviously you have advisors, but in the end, You are the founder or you are free founders. You can ask each other. This already, this already helps at the start. And it still is a big challenge that a lot of people rely on you.

    And obviously yourself, you might have some doubts. Of course you have your vision, but you might doubt it at some times. It’s a process as well to become a founder. Then you never did it before in your life. 

    Alexis: Okay. And Héloïse, I’d love to hear your thoughts as well. 

    Héloïse: So to be a leader in a, as, as a young founder in a startup, I think is absolutely thrilling.

    I’ve always looked at leaders by leading by example, and I hope I share a good example with what I’m doing in my day and, and how I act in my life. But I think the biggest challenge for me is communication because we have so much information in our heads. We have to communicate it in one way to our co founders.

    We have to not communicate some things as well because we don’t want to disturb them at some times of the day where we’re focused on deep work, but then you have to [00:05:00] communicate at different times. You start to communicate differently to employees, to interns and to freelancers, but also to investors, clients, prospects, and people you just meet at a random cocktail for networking events.

    Communication for me is very, very important, and it’s a challenge that I’m not ready to have completely tackled yet, for sure. I think it gets even tougher when you go. 

    Nikolai: To jump in immediately and you have the extra challenge that you are the CEO, so you’re also by role in charge of the communication with the external world.

    I mean, you mentioned investors, but like people will always look to you first. So it’s. Internal different types of communications and then the whole external world. And obviously the employees see what you say outside your investors have some insights into the company as well. So I think it’s already also interesting to balance those different types of requirements of communication where you are in the spotlight.

    Alexis: What I observed so far, you are doing really [00:06:00] great. So I would say, don’t be too worried about that. Maybe that you are doing great, but I’m glad you’re taking care of that. And you’re, you’re finding that very important. So That’s very cool. There’s always challenges in early stage startups. Can you tell me what are the typical leadership challenges you face?

    Héloïse, do 

    Héloïse: you want to take that first? Yes. The first challenge is people. Okay. And I think it’s the most important challenge of all, because a company is laughing about its team. The main challenge, for example, that one of us, we had to face was our first maternity leave. It was happened during, uh, the life of a startup.

    It was a surprise for everyone, the person included. And we’re all very happy that it’s, it’s happening. It’s going well. However, it’s of course like, no one tells you as a young founder, how to react when your employee tells you that we’re going to go on maternity leave in the next six months. And you have to react to the right words in a culture setting that’s very international and with [00:07:00] an age gap that’s quite present.

    So yeah, there’s a lot of key elements to put into context for your first reaction to this type of news, which for me was quite naturally because I think Life is a Miracle was very warm. But at the end of the day, it’s also a challenge for the whole team to make sure that everything goes well for everyone professionally.

    Alexis: I have to admit that the first time it happened to me, I believe my face showed something completely different from what I wanted to say. And I saw the person, the face of the person in front of me. And I realized that my face was telling off what we will do now. And what I wanted to say is, of course, congratulations, because that’s what you want to say.

    But I was already starting to compute what, what we will do. That’s an important person. And when I saw the face of the person in front of me. [00:08:00] I 

    Nikolai: think this can summarize many things quite up. You have like really happy moments and still lots of concerns at the same time. So you obviously, we are very happy for her, but still, we still feel the responsibility as a founder, because this person also has a leadership role, you think, okay, who will cover that?

    Okay, we also have a CTO who goes on maternity leave on his honeymoon. At the same time, you have someone who has a visa needs to travel for it. So we always have A lot of things in the back of our head that we need to consider. And just because we consider, I don’t think that makes us less humane. I would say we try to be very empathetic, but still we also need to make sure that the company survives because in the end that’s the goal here.

    So I think yeah, balancing those thoughts is quite important. And then maybe to add to your point, so I would agree people challenge at the top. For me, It is the challenge of challenges because [00:09:00] there’s always so much stuff happening at the same time and you need to prioritize stuff. And this means, which I find quite difficult is sometimes you have to say no.

    Like we, by definition, a startup has very limited resources. So people will have ideas. That might be great, but still, sometimes you have to say, no, you need to prioritize because if you do everything at once, you do nothing. And that’s quite important to set like a clear guideline for yourself, for the founding team, but also for the employees.

    Héloïse: I completely agree. Especially in a tech startup where people are like tech wizards, project geniuses, call it whatever you want, but people are very creative. They always have this cool idea to do this new research or that cool new feature. But at the end of the day, maybe it’s my stage hat, but I have me.

    For me, if it doesn’t go on the front line and there’s no impact on the revenue, it’s not a good idea. It’s not good. If I cannot see where it’s going to bring more value to the market that we’re addressing. 

    Nikolai: And sometimes it’s a bit brutal. And like, because, you know, you don’t want to be [00:10:00] the no person. And I mean, we don’t say no most of the time, but it happens.

    And it can be kind of like, because you know, you want people to have ideas because maybe the idea is actually something nobody thought about and it sparks something great. But I mean, the minimum we have to do is like really challenge it. And then, yeah, sometimes we have to be a bit tough and say, yeah, okay, cool.

    But honestly, Maybe in two years, if everything goes well and that’s not always easy. 

    Héloïse: And actually the challenge to make sure that we, uh, not just challenge that, but channel that we channel the energy of the people that joined the team by creating this a new ambassador program. That’s called the Cormacolindor.

    It’s literally, so, you know, the name Corma comes from the name, the ring, where the sass of sass, so one ring from the Lord of the Rings, basically. And, um, uh, Cormacolindor is literally an elfish. Yeah. The ring bearer, the person that bears the ring, because like Frodo, when you’re Corma, you’re a Cormacollindor in Elvish.

    So we did this program quite [00:11:00] recently with the new hires to help them step by step collaborate with each other to reach the objective key results, make sure that they do things outside of work that build up the team, uh, team spirits and make sure that individually they shine because everyone is unique.

    Everyone can not, no, They cannot be replaced, someone cannot, because you’re not here, I replace you. So it’s really a very interesting program to show that, to really leverage also and make them shine as people. Because it’s not just the challenge, it’s also the main channel of how Corma is going to do great.

    Alexis: I love it. That’s very, very interesting. So you put people first as a challenge, and I can see that you are really taking care of I’ll People contribute to the company, but also how they develop themselves, how they grow into their role and grow with each other. So that’s very cool. Are there other challenges as managing people as young founders?

    I mean, 

    Nikolai: for like an important thing, it’s people, but [00:12:00] you know, as a startup, you’re in survival mode all the time until you get I mean, technically every company is survival mode, but I would say in startups is the strongest because they are young, they didn’t prove themselves yet. They don’t have as much money as they want.

    They don’t have like their product market fit yet. That’s generating profitable revenues every month. So, so it’s really. Tough also on the, on the commercial side to manage people and data founders are obviously heavily involved as well because we have investors, we have some funding, but we need to show to get revenue to prove obviously that our product, that our idea is needed, but at the same time it also pays our bills.

    And I think balancing a little bit of this financial need to just push on the commercial expansion, but at the same time, not get lost. On it. And remember, you try to sell your product because you believe in it. And if you have more clients, you get more user [00:13:00] feedback. It’s a bit difficult to balance this sometimes the need for commercial expansion or with the internal need to understand what you actually want to bid.

    If the client asks you, okay, can you do this? You say, obviously yes. And if, if it’s. Not there at all. You say it’s on the roadmap and if you know, it’s like humanly technically impossible to do it. You say, okay, we’re going to look into it for the next quarter. But obviously this has a limit. You cannot oversell all the time and you need to take a step back then and know how to balance this.

    I would say this is also a challenge. 

    Alexis: Hmm. Very good point. So when the leadership team embodies the values and principles they want to see in the organization, then I believe the organization can scale, can grow and can become something very beautiful. Do you agree with that statement? 

    Héloïse: Yeah. Culture eats strategy for breakfast.

    So like, it’s a very basic sentence to say, but really summarizes the whole feeling that we see, not [00:14:00] just at Corma as a company that has, is very strong in the values that it upheld, but also within Station F, we see the startups that are very united. Where the people are already, the cement of the whole building, of the, basically the cathedral that they’re going to build.

    It beats any competition. It goes, it just shines quick pass. 

    Alexis: So what are you doing to create such a culture? 

    Nikolai: You mentioned it’s a lot of leadership by example. You need to lift the company values and I think it’s also something we learned. You need to actively nurture it. Like, okay, people. Probably have the tendency to copy behavior, but you need to encourage it.

    And it was something that was not always super easy because sometimes people feel the founder has their unique role and they always share direction. But you know, it’s part of our DNA that we want people to lead the way as well. So there’s sometimes you need to actively encourage fine programs. Like, for example, what you said with this ambassador program, but it can be [00:15:00] small stuff to how you give praise, how you give feedback.

    So for example, this radical Canada methodology, we follow it, tried to implement it and how we do feedback and how we do development and like personal career development. It’s an active process. It takes active management. Even if we try to. Live as the best example. I think it’s still, yeah, we still need to be active to do it.

    Héloïse: Yeah. Some examples are typically by your life on time, if not on time, like this in advance, being on time is always being late. It being present for the others. Like if someone wants to talk about something, they can pick a lunch for you very easily as a founder is something that you do. I mean, sometimes it’s a career coaching.

    Sometimes I, and we talk about other things than work, which is like, what is like next five years, you know, how, how can we, how can we get you there? It’s about creating an alumni, uh, alumni group. And the alumni also inspire the current people that are present at Cuomo. And so they are inspired together and it’s about giving them the voice to be heard so that they [00:16:00] embody this leadership position that Nikolai was just explaining now.

    It’s part of not just the Ambassador program, which is. Basically setting a more formal setting to what was happening before it’s really just a mix of how you celebrate the little wins or you close the deal. That’s really, really good. Okay. How can I help you close your deal today? Collaboration on different topics and putting everyone in the same team, like there’s not a tech team and a safety mask on my team.

    That’s just one. That’s just not possible to not talk to each other. Even if you don’t understand what JavaScript is, at some point, you’re going to have 

    Alexis: to. I love what you’re saying there. So you mentioned Radical Condor for the audience. The idea, if I summarize it, is if you care personally about people, then you can challenge them directly.

    So that’s the important part of it. If people can feel that you care about them, then you can challenge them. basically give a feedback. If you don’t feel you care about them, it’s like if you were trying to put a big truck on a rope [00:17:00] bridge. It will not really work. Your feedback will not go through. So that’s basically useless.

    Is it a good summary? I think 

    Nikolai: like the other thing is even more dangerous that because you care to, because I would say we all care deeply about the, the, the team, the humans, the people behind it, that you, because of that don’t challenge directly. I think in the concept it’s called ruinous empathy, and I think it’s a big risk that you’re trying to be too nice, too cushy.

    You know, it’s like a bit of the example after lunch, you have some food stuck in your face. You don’t want to tell the person because you don’t want to embarrass them, but imagine then they go off and spend all their day with food in their face and they would have been so much more grateful to have this.

    uncomfortable moment where you say, yes, sorry, maybe clean your mouth a little bit. There will be so much that you were created this little uncomfortable moment, but overall, because you care personally, you gave some, yeah, let’s say negative or in the sense, constructive criticism. This is better. Like, so for me, just being like toxic, not caring about [00:18:00] people giving meaning.

    Feedback. Obviously there are toxic people. I don’t think we are at risk of it. So for me, it’s more the thing to avoid the ruinous empathy and to challenge directly because we have the best intention behind it. 

    Alexis: I love it. Thank you for the example. That will make it very clear to people. They will all try to look if they don’t have anything left.

    So lastly, what advice would you like to share with our audience, especially those who are aspiring leaders or early stage founders? 

    Héloïse: That’s a good question. 

    Nikolai: I think there are a lot of answers to 

    Héloïse: it. Yeah, there’s so many. I mean, it depends on what context you’re in, but do you want to start or? 

    Nikolai: I mean, for me, there are some basic things.

    You throw yourself into the cold water. I know some people that hesitated away from leadership positions because they are scared to manage others, be it because they’re still a bit young. They’re a bit shy. You have to do it to learn it. It’s not something you learn in the textbooks. So you. First, you have to bring yourself in the position to [00:19:00] lead.

    And then the next thing is you will see, you don’t need to figure everything on your own. Find yourself some mentors, find yourself some friends. Ideally. I mean, we have us three co founders, I would say we are really, really tightly linked. Then you can like with people that have similar experiences or similar learnings.

    Try to like, once you bring yourself out there, try to exchange with people that live in the same or lived in the past in the same situation and try to learn from there what worked for them, from what doesn’t. And for me, something that I usually do, like try to follow your intuition. If you feel something doesn’t feel right, maybe, yeah, reflect if it’s good.

    And if you have a good feeling of something, you also need to have to act, like have the courage to act. Don’t be like too scared in moments, even if it might seem a bit scary. Like sometimes you have to push yourself a little. I think that’s the uncomfortable part of the leadership. Sometimes you need to do things that are not super pleasant, but you have to do it because nobody else will.

    Héloïse: I mean, I can [00:20:00] only second what Nicolas just said. One thing in addition came into my mind. So when you’re young as a founder, there’s a lot of topics. But you’re going to realize that exists first in life, like managing new employees, like having a specific type of client to manage or stuff like that. It’s called like zones of hurtful ignorance that are very difficult to not difficult to observe because they’re quite come quite fast, but very difficult to, you know, on your own, if you really isolate yourself, it’s going to be a harsh on you, on your life, on your mental health.

    To actually overcome and because you, you have like 15, uh, ignorance bits to, to master at the same time. Like, uh, it’s like, just life gets in the way. What I really would recommend to a young founder, how founder starting out is you just get your phone, build out a list of the top 50 people. And so maybe five in every category, or 10 in every category that you most admire in the world.

    in your region, in your industry, and get [00:21:00] them on the phone, book a meeting with them. It might take you a year, but at the end of the day, you’re going to make it happen. Actually, I would disagree. 

    Nikolai: It won’t take you a year. Like one thing that surprised me, how happy many leaders are actually are to share their knowledge.

    I mean, if you think of some people that we spoke, like we, I mean, yeah, it’s, We’re not out of school for that long and the amount of senior people we speak to just because we reach out because, okay, they maybe get spammed by sales people, but just people asking for like founder to founder advice. They are usually really happy to share.

    So like really go out there and try to get some advice, some mentorship. I would say it’s easier than you think. I don’t think you need a year for it, but it’s super valuable to do that. 

    Alexis: I love that. That’s really beautiful. Thank you for being here. Join the podcast today. I’m sure it will be already uploaded.

    Héloïse: Thank [00:22:00] you.

  • The Future of User Experience Is Not Artificial — It’s Human

    The Future of User Experience Is Not Artificial — It’s Human

    When we talk about the future of User Experience, the conversation often jumps straight to AI models, automation, and performance.

    But what if the real challenge isn’t prediction — but judgment?

    In this episode of Le Podcast on Emerging Leadership, I had the pleasure of discussing this question with Sebastian Cao, a UX and technology leader who has worked at Red Hat and Tesla, and who recently taught a Stanford course on the future of User Experience.

    His perspective is refreshingly clear:
    technology only creates value when it strengthens human capability.


    Prediction is easy. Judgment is human.

    Sebastian draws a crucial distinction between two forms of intelligence:

    • Prediction, where machines excel by identifying patterns in massive datasets
    • Judgment, where humans rely on experience, context, and intuition

    At Tesla, this distinction became very concrete. Machine learning models could predict likely failures based on historical data. But technicians — by touching, seeing, and sensing the vehicle — often detected signals no model could capture.

    The best systems were not fully automated.
    They were guided systems, where AI informed decisions, but humans remained accountable.


    From automation to augmentation

    One of Sebastian’s most telling stories is surprisingly simple.

    When his team was called Service Automation, frontline technicians immediately feared job loss. The name alone created resistance.

    Renaming the team Service Augmentation changed everything.

    Words matter.
    Framing matters.

    By explicitly positioning AI as a tool to amplify human skill, rather than replace it, adoption became possible. Productivity improved, trust increased, and the technology actually delivered value.


    The “ghost in the machine” problem

    Sebastian uses the metaphor of the ghost in the machine to describe what happens when AI systems behave like black boxes.

    When users don’t understand:

    • where data comes from
    • how predictions are made
    • how confident the system really is

    they stop trusting the tool — or actively work against it.

    Transparency is not a “nice to have” UX feature.
    It is the foundation of trust.

    Explaining reasoning, showing confidence levels, and making decision logic visible turns AI from something magical and frightening into something usable and credible.


    Empathy is not optional anymore

    One of the strongest messages of the episode is that empathy has become an engineering requirement.

    Designing AI-driven systems without understanding:

    • user incentives
    • fears around automation
    • real-world decision-making

    almost guarantees failure.

    Sebastian insists on something deceptively simple:
    go where users work, observe them, and learn how decisions are really made.

    No amount of code can replace that.


    Open source, ethics, and trust

    Finally, Sebastian makes a strong case for openness.

    When AI systems influence frontline decisions — impacting customers, safety, or livelihoods — leaders must be able to explain who built the model, how it was trained, and what biases may exist.

    For him, open source is not an ideology.
    It is a practical condition for trust and accountability.


    Leadership in a human-centered AI world

    Sebastian’s advice to leaders is clear:

    Understand the technology.
    But never forget the human on the other side.

    The future of User Experience will not be decided by the biggest model or the fastest deployment.
    It will be shaped by leaders who combine technical literacy, empathy, and responsibility.

    That is where Emerging Leadership truly begins.

    Here is the transcript of the episode

    Alexis: [00:00:00] Welcome to the podcast on emerging leadership. I’m your host, Alexis Monville. Today, we have a fascinating conversation with our guest, Sebastian Cao. Sebastian is a visionary leader with a wealth of experience at the intersection of technology and user experience, having held pivotal roles at Red Hat, Tesla, among others.

    He recently delivered an insightful course at Stanford on the future of user experience, where he explored critical topics like AI’s role in augmenting human capabilities. So we are thrilled to dive into these topics with him today. Sebastian, welcome to the podcast. How do you typically introduce yourself to someone you just met?

    Sebastian: Thank you Alexis.  I love to be here. I usually speak that I’m an engineer that can talk about [00:01:00] Problems that could be solved with technology. I like to talk about problems. that are worth to be solved, like real problems talking about as a species worldwide, globally, problems that we have and what are good options and good ideas to solve with technology.

    So that’s my, how I introduce myself. 

    Alexis: I love those kinds of introduction where I need to ask more questions to know a little bit more about your background and all those things. But we will go through that at some point. You did a Stanford course. about the future of user experiences, and you emphasize the balance between prediction and judgment.

    Can you tell us more about that? Because I’m very curious about that thing. 

    Sebastian: Yeah, as I mentioned, I’m an engineer, computer science engineer, but I’m certainly not the kind of guy that would go and hack and make a model, an LLM model better, or just make a little bit more incremental performance out of a model.

    I’m more [00:02:00] concerned and interested about how that model could really solve human problems. We can go into that and move into Silicon Valley, like a few years ago. And you always read about all this story and the heritage around this area. And you see all this company, but it’s still a really engineering led culture.

    So everyone right now is like competing about it’s an arms race, right? Who has the biggest, boldest, more expensive model in a way. But I was concerned and we can certainly touch into that. My experience of 2 years at Tesla about how we can solve real human everyday problems for frontline workers that.

    So, when I was discussing that we engineers that were getting coding these big models back inside Tesla, we’re always. Computers will always be better than us and doing prediction made by that we mean getting a huge amount of data historical data and see patterns things that [00:03:00] are repetitive over there and say, OK, this is with a high.

    That’s a probability, right? With a high degree of a chance, 90 percent 80%. So this will happen because data show us that happened before. And that’s great. We shouldn’t be doing that. So in the case of a car company, any company, you get all the historical repairs and you know that certain type of cars in certain weather, when driven by certain patterns, you usually break this part of this subsystem X amount of kilometers or miles or whatever.

    So that’s great. We were doing that. We predicted diagnostic to Manchell learning. What I wanted to add to the equation, because it’s the part that’s easy to forget is What about the judgment? What about the human judgment? The mechanic or technician will see the car coming, and we might see by touching it, by feeling, by looking at the car, might see that something else is off.

    Maybe there was a, I don’t know, heartbreak or there was actually a crash or something that happened before that we’re getting all [00:04:00] this data and all these signals coming from the car that might also come into play. And that’s what we humans are good at. We remember seeing that before. We made a decision back in the day that the outcome was a particular outcome, and that kind of is part of your knowledge base and your experience.

    So how we can merge both how we can merge the cold data coming from the car in this case, but leaving the opportunity for the technician to make. a judgment call. So I was pushing not for a automated kind of result, but like a guided, guided diagnosis process where the machine will provide all the probabilities looking at the car and getting all the data coming from the sensor.

    But the technician will actually use that to make their own judgment and say, yes, I will do that. Or maybe now we’ll do the other thing. So I think that is a, that’s a great concept that I’ve been talking and I’m In love right now, and I think it’s really important because we’re seeing this much development in a it’s [00:05:00] thinking about a not only as artificial intelligence, not even as artificial intelligence, but more like augmented intelligent or amplify intelligent where we make humans better, they can do more because we’re feeding them with data pre analyze data with a lot of prediction by your living room for judgment.

    Alexis: Okay, so a large place for human, but not only human, the experience they have in a particular field, and that could be any field. 

    Sebastian: In this case, we’re talking about mechanics technicians, people that do wrenches, they take wrenches, I mean, with their hands, they’re not coding, they’re not engineer, they don’t care about at all about machine learning.

    How you can give them More especially there for example compensated and then we get into compensation and kind of incentives that’s a cold economical kind of analysis and there’s a lot of research about that they were incentivized by the number of cars so why don’t we tell them a story that they [00:06:00] will be able to use him.

    Augmented. Tools or machine learning or whatever, it’s not about machine learning. They can actually go through more cars through the day, through the week. So they’re more productive. They get a better paycheck. So we’re all happy. But sometimes I feel as an industry coming from any, again, as a software engineer all my life, and we met in a software company, we tend to fail to explain that we go into, okay, this is cool.

    This is the latest, this is the latest model. LLMs, but we understand who is the customer who’s on the other side consuming that technology, how they’re incentivized and what is that they’re trying to solve. And we certainly fail at telling that story sometimes. 

    Alexis: I feel there’s something deeper that we can grasp there.

    And so AI is not a replacement for human intelligence and definitely human intelligence, their experience and how they understand the world is something important. So they could be augmented. How do you do that? Practically. 

    Sebastian: [00:07:00] That’s where I learned a lot and made a lot of mistakes doing that. And I think that’s what I’m looking at.

    What is the company or yeah, a company, a software provider actually going to crack that code. I think right now everyone is fighting about releasing the biggest model and spending a lot of billions of dollars in training, but no one is certainly there might be companies doing that. But we haven’t seen that and the headlines and the stories in the media.

    It’s all about the biggest model and the competition between the providers. No one is okay. This model, whether it’s the biggest or not, it’s actually increasing productivity for it. Frontline workers, technicians, insurance clerks, customer support operators, airlines, whatever, we’re still not seeing that because we’re failing at deploying those models along human beings, working side to side, the whole copilot idea, whatever we would like to call it.

    So when I’m seeing failings first, as an engineer, we tend to, it’s too [00:08:00] complicated. We throw a lot of technology in a lot of. Explanation and a lot of, we tend to use automation and artificial intelligence a lot. And if on the other side you have someone that doesn’t come from our industry, the first thing that comes to mind is, okay, this is automation, this is going to replace me.

    No matter your intention is the first, because it’s the human reaction to that. One of the first things that I did at Tesla’s team that I inherited when I joined was called service automation. And we were supposedly, we were tasked to, okay, let’s create more tools. For internal customers to employees, more tools for them to be become better.

    I say, okay, the first thing I want you to change is the name because every time I present myself as service automation, they say, okay, you’re coming for my job. So it was super quick and everyone say, okay, that’s cool. That’s a good idea. So we change it to service augmentation and I started sharing a lot of like research, not papers, but just.

    Headlines and professors kind of [00:09:00] analysis at both sides of the aisle, as they say here in the US, both the engineers are building the software and the consumers on the other side, the technicians say, Hey, this is what we’re trying to build. We’re trying to build something that will help you go through your day that are going to augment you.

    Augmentation is still like a 20 word. As I say here, it’s like too complicated. Maybe the amplification. But just change the name because words carry a lot of weight. Right now in the media, it’s much more interesting to publish. story about automation or AI taking out jobs than talking about AI making people better.

    Alexis: It’s very interesting how we oscillate between a 1 world and 5, 000 world, and we are mixing them in one sentence and it’s scaring everybody. 

    Sebastian: It’s a human behavior and we go from, this is going to be a great feature, to Skynet and Terminator and we’re going all like the matrix. So, and that sells. So I think it’s for people like us, like you to understand the technology, but I think you need to [00:10:00] go further and explain the technology, explain what’s going on, explain why you’re using 

    Alexis: it.

    And it’s a very good point. You need to care about the users themselves, the people who will really use the technology and go a little bit further in understanding how they work and what they are trying to achieve. And it’s not a game about feature or that’s not only that it’s really about. what they need to accomplish, even if they don’t really know what kind of feature they would need on pantyhose with users, I feel is very important.

    Absolutely. You picked an example about the ghost in the machine. And I was very curious about that because yeah, I’m probably old enough to know about that album from a police, uh, from the police, 

    Sebastian: 1981 great songs that I was doing, but I always heard, I mean, I always listened to music that is. Yeah, but yeah, I got a t shirt and I used that t shirt that’s about that album that is called the policy of ghost in the machine.

    And I used that t shirt when I went to a meeting that I want to explain the [00:11:00] concept and say, the ghost in the machine is that idea. It’s a phrase that had been going on forever. It’s just. You can also talk about the Turing test and all that. Okay. If it is a machine, if it is new enough or strange enough, and I think most people got that experience with JGPD like two years ago, you do feel that there’s something else about a program there.

    That is the ghost. There’s a soul, there’s a human touch. At the end of the day now, if you delve into it and you get into the research and you do, you understand the transformer model and all that, okay, it’s a pretty big program choosing what’s the next word to use. But at the beginning, it feels magical.

    I think that is the idea is people will tend to think, okay, this is actually sentient. This is actually thinking by itself. So with the ghost in the machine, I tell the people, if we don’t explain them what’s going on, if it is a black box, that is a concept that we also use a lot in software, you’re not explaining where’s the data coming from for you to make the decision, the prediction, where it’s coming from, who selected the data, [00:12:00] who labeled the data, and then you don’t explain how you use that data to make a decision.

    And then you explain. In simple terms, kind of the, like the confidence interval, I say, okay, we’re pretty sure up to 80 percent you don’t need to use percentage worth. I was pushing a lot for like graphical representation, easy to understand that this is a recommendation based on all this data. I think we also need to get better at that with sending all these models that you ask a question, you get a response, but there’s nothing that will explain you.

    How that response got constructed, how that response came to be, and then we get into a lot of and we all we saw that already a lot of crazy stuff on really dangerous stuff about labeling and who’s bias data and all that. So I think that is an also an important concept. We’re dealing with a frontline workers say sharing with them.

    Okay, we’re giving you this recommendation because A, B and C or D happened before in my case, I was pushing, but it was a pretty simple concept to fix [00:13:00] an issue. You’re relying on millions and millions of rows of data, lines of data coming from previous repairs. The repairs, historical repairs you have done 10 years of experience, those repairs were done by other technicians just by sharing to the technicians.

    Hey, this is actually recommending you what to do, but it’s trained in a way or based on what your peers have done in the past. It’s like this shared knowledge of all your peers that you look up to. It’s not a machine that the machine is just sorting the data and just going through that really fast.

    That was a good example of how I was pushing for the ghost in the machine. We will need to explain because they will embrace it much. There will be much more open. That is just again, a black box. They’ll say, Hey, the machine is telling you to do this. Then they will know, you know what I’m doing the other way around.

    Alexis: What I really like there, it’s not just trying to explain how the feature work, but basically showing the work that is done, explaining all the reasoning [00:14:00] that got us to the conclusion. So you need to explain a few things. You did it very well to say, okay, that’s basically the model is just trying to predict what is the right word to use after the previous one based on historical data.

    That’s probably a rough explanation, but that’s pretty cool because then, okay, I understand that this is the data, this is how it works, and I can trust. that thing. In addition to that, I have a kind of confidence level that is shown to me. I can really rely on it or I can say, ah, okay, the confidence is very low.

    There’s maybe not a lot of historical data on my current situation. You probably need to pay attention a little bit more. That’s very interesting, I 

    Sebastian: feel. It’s spot on, and you mentioned such a key word, Alexis, that is trust. And the other word that I kept on using in all my meetings with product managers and engineers is empathy, too.

    You need to increase the empathy for them to say, Hey, this is actually helping me. And [00:15:00] I’m actually rooting for the software, rooting for this solution because it becomes better, the solution becomes better or machine learning, whatever the AI becomes better, I become better. We’re all peers. We’re all partners.

    If I think you’re trying to replace me, then I will do all my best to actually hijack and just kill your project. 

    Alexis: You have quite a fascinating career trajectory funding companies in Latin America, working with RADAT in Latin America and in the U. S., working in the Silicon Valley for Tesla. How do you see the role of technology in customer experience?

    in the future. And how have you seen that evolve? And how do you see that for the, in the future? 

    Sebastian: That’s a good question. You know, Alex, one thing that I keep repeating myself, just not to forget, and I keep telling friends that I have in Latin America, they go, okay, Tesla, Silicon Valley is great. And you can relate to that being in France is at the end of the [00:16:00] day here, you will see probably bigger, Ammunition, bigger weapons, or bigger things that they’re building for a global scale, we’re solving the same kind of problems.

    Cultural change, resistance to change, human behavior is the same in Silicon Valley, in Paris or France, in Buenos Aires, in Argentina, in Brazil, or in Africa. This problem of, let’s say, for Tesla, but if you’re throwing a fully automation machine learning, whatever, diagnostic to a technician. In Tesla and Silicon Valley, without explanation, they will resist to it.

    You do that in France, they will resist to it. Also, you do that in Turkey, they will resist to it. And the same in Latin America. That’s again, that was an insight that was a realization for me. I finally understood that, okay, I’m here because you get exposed to global scale of solving problems. You probably have bigger resources and tools to solve that problem.

    But at the end of the day, the problem that you’re solving is still a human problem that is the same, no [00:17:00] matter what language you speak or the color of your skin or whatever, to be honest, this is amazing because even with everything that we’re discussing about AI and all that, at the end of the day, human beings at the core, we are still the same and we fear the same things and we need the same kind of help.

    So that’s probably what I think it’s the biggest. Outcome of my journey so far, but yeah, as I mentioned here in Silicon Valley, you see that we go really fast and sometimes too fast. So I like being here and seeing everything that’s going on with AI and everything that we’re thinking about building at the same time.

    I’m super interested in how we are going to build all of that with a good adoption and with empathy. So this is a great 

    Alexis: place to try all of that. So that’s the right balance of technology and human touch. That’s the empathy that you build with the users and to foster the adoption of technology or foster the idea of innovation itself.

    Sebastian: I read as many psychology books as [00:18:00] Coding or AI machine learning algorithm books. I think we need both, especially with AI right now. Any, any you on your, what you’re working on your consultancy and we need people that talk technical because you’re going to be exposed to technical discussion or code or a solution or diagram.

    Okay. This is what we’re building, but I think we need more people that can understand, okay, we build this and we ship this product. This is going to happen. And if you don’t know, at least you’re going to, Catching a bus or a taxi and you go there with your user and you sit with them, you sit with them and see them in action.

    In my case, it was going to the Places where they were actually branching car and working with them. You have to work with them, understand what they’re doing. So if you’re just shipping code, pushing code into production without ever talking and touching and feeling your customers, it’s going to be hard.

    Alexis: I had a, I had a conversation with a really high performing team. I was looking at what they were doing every week to have a sense of what they are, the [00:19:00] things that were important to them. I noticed that. All the team members had user, real users, interviews every week. Not all of them. Every week there was a contact with a user.

    at least one. And that was different people on the team. And they had a user interview guide that was constantly evolving because they were testing their assumption with different users. And I was looking at it and say, Oh, okay. So probably a successful team needs to be in contact in touch with their users at least weekly that showed up in their work.

    Of course, 

    Sebastian: I agree with you. I think they’re really successful like B2C consumer companies. The product management team had been doing the, they know that, and they’ve been doing for AI, we’re trying to hopefully not replace, but augment decision. It’s even more that you need to be there and understand how that person is making decisions.

    If [00:20:00] you trying to build something. That person was going to use on their day to day. Now you end up with Clippy from office in the 90s. They’ll say, Hey, what do you need to do? Do you need to print? Hopefully we’ll become better than that. 

    Alexis: Yeah. That’s the first question everybody asked was how to turn off that thing.

    Absolutely. Finally, as a leader who worked in different high tech environments, what advice would you give to a new leader who want to effectively evolve in that world? 

    Sebastian: Advice. Okay. For leaders, I would say maybe what we’ve been discussing, it’s, I think today you need to have exposure to the technical part of things, understand everything that is going on, how it’s been created, why it’s been created and by who, and there’s a lot of, we know.

    Political things at stake and companies competing against each other. So you need to understand them. We probably need another podcast to discuss open source versus closed source for [00:21:00] things like AI and all that. But you need to understand where everything is coming from. But those again, those are tools in your tool belt.

    What I would like leaders. I think it’s very important. We’ve been discussing, understand, be empathetic, understand who’s on the other side. Who’s your customer? Who’s consuming that? It’s a B2C, it’s a B2B. Are your users experienced with AI or whatever technology you’re using, or they are not? Do they trust it or not?

    And if not, and if you’d make those questions and you get answers, work with those answers, I think one thing that I see a lot here is, again, we are shipping code without asking any questions and we think that code is the best and that option will follow. And I think we need a little more human touch on that.

    So that will be my recommendation for leaders. Again, human touch and empathy. 

    Alexis: Excellent. Oh, I cannot resist. People will not see that on video. I can see it on your wrist. You have an interesting message. Tell me more about that. 

    Sebastian: All right. Yeah, I am. I just I was it was lying around. [00:22:00] This is a wristband that I got from one of my favorite places in the U.

    S. That is the Air and Space Museum in Washington, D. C. That you have all these. Historical planes and the Apollo mission, all that. And this is a wristband that says failure is not an option. And there was a wristband that was created for the Apollo team before sending someone to the moon. And then you see how much was achieved in collaboration between private and public sector, different political views and all that, how much was achieved in like six years, that’s amazing.

    Alexis: I like the story, I like the message and at the same time you mentioned open source a second ago, so don’t we say fail often, fail fast or something like that? 

    Sebastian: Oh, you got me there. Okay, we have another hour and a half to keep the discussion. I don’t like the idea of with AI and everything that’s going on that fail often, fail fast.

    I mean, just releasing whatever it is because now this is something that is talking at you and many people are making decisions based on the responses that [00:23:00] they got, the answers that they have. So if it’s not curated, if it’s biased, a lot of things can go wrong. And we have seen examples. So I think for the ethos of just move fast and break things, I’ve never liked that much.

    And especially here right now with AI. And the other part that you asked me, we share that background together is I think there’s need to be a much more open source involved. And again, ghosting the machine and the black box. If that model is answering me questions, I want to understand who built the model and who made those initial training, initial answers.

    And that’s what I love. What a lot of companies are doing in France are taking the more human approach and they’re mostly based in open source. If we go and this is a personal opinion, so I don’t know, I don’t care about all the comments that we may have. This is handled by one big corporation with all the data and it’s closed.

    We have seen that before, and it’s never a good story. So I will push for [00:24:00] maybe we have seen you and I were competing against other companies. Maybe you have your closed source. That’s good. And you have your open source of that is good enough to and it kind of the similar. It’s your choice, but at least you have an open source choice.

    I wouldn’t trust my frontline workers to make decisions that will affect customers based on a model that I don’t know exactly how it was built. Personal opinion, 120%. 

    Alexis: Totally agree. And that we are back to the trust aspect and transparency is the foundation to build trust. So I love that. I’m happy that I asked the question about failure.

    Thank you for joining the podcast, Sebastian. Thank Alex. You have been great. Let’s do this. 

    Sebastian: Once again, in the future, okay? Pleasure. Take 

    care.

  • Unlocking Growth through Unexpected Insights: A Review of Gojko Adzic’s Lizard Optimization

    Unlocking Growth through Unexpected Insights: A Review of Gojko Adzic’s Lizard Optimization

    In his latest book, Lizard Optimization: Unlock Product Growth by Engaging Long-Tail Users, Gojko Adzic presents a framework for identifying and harnessing the potential of long-tail user behavior. Much like his previous works, Gojko takes a fresh, often counter-intuitive approach to product management, making this book a must-read for anyone involved in creating and managing software products.

    The core concept of Lizard Optimization is deceptively simple: instead of solely focusing on mainstream users, product teams should actively seek out unusual, “weird” user behavior. Businesses can uncover new product opportunities and unlock significant growth by understanding and optimizing for these outliers — the “lizards” in a long-tail distribution.

    What struck me the most while reading this book was how Gojko draws inspiration from real-life examples of product pivots that emerged from unexpected user behaviors. One standout example was Flickr’s shift from a multiplayer game to a photo-sharing platform, driven by users’ unforeseen enthusiasm for sharing pictures. Rather than seeing such usage as anomalies, Gojko encourages us to treat these behaviors as opportunities for deepening product-market fit.

    Key Takeaways

    1. Learn from Unintended Usage: Gojko emphasizes that product growth often lies in the outliers — those who use the product in ways the original designers never intended. Instead of dismissing these users, he suggests digging deeper into why they’re doing what they’re doing and how we can help them succeed. His method for analyzing these behaviors provides a systematic approach to discovering new opportunities.
    2. Zero In on Behavior Changes: Gojko introduces a four-step process — summarized with the mnemonic LZRD (Learn, Zero in, Remove, Detect) — to help teams optimize their products for outliers. This structured approach feels practical and accessible for teams of all sizes, offering actionable insights that can be applied immediately.
    3. Real-Life Application: Throughout the book, Gojko weaves stories from his experience with products like MindMup and Narakeet. He shares how optimizing for edge cases unlocked exponential growth, demonstrating that paying attention to “weird” user behavior can help find hidden markets and new opportunities.

    A Strategic Shift for Product Teams

    While many product strategies focus on pleasing most users, Lizard Optimization challenges teams to think differently. This book is precious for product managers, senior engineers, and anyone guiding product development. It offers a compelling argument for looking at usage data to confirm assumptions and discover new user goals that may have been overlooked.

    This book stands out because of Gojko’s ability to turn something as serendipitous as a user’s “misuse” of a product into a deliberate growth strategy. It’s not just about preventing churn or reducing inefficiencies; it’s about actively engaging the long tail and treating unexpected user behavior as the key to exponential growth.

    Final Thoughts

    Lizard Optimization is an engaging, thought-provoking read that will make you question your current approach to product development. Gojko’s method of optimizing for long-tail users offers a practical and innovative toolkit for product managers looking to unlock the next wave of growth for their products. If you’re ready to embrace the weird, the unexpected, and the unplanned, this book is for you.

    Learn More from Gojko on Le Podcast on Emerging Leadership

    In March 2021, Gojko joined me on Le Podcast on Emerging Leadership for an episode titled Build a Product with Gojko Adzic. We explored his insights on building the perfect product, avoiding waste in software development, and how to apply concepts like Impact Mapping in day-to-day work. His unique approach to product strategy resonated with many listeners, and I frequently refer back to his thoughts from that conversation.

    I’m thrilled to share that Gojko will return for a future episode of Le Podcast on Emerging Leadership, where we’ll dive deeper into the strategies behind Lizard Optimization and explore how product managers can unlock growth by engaging with outlier behaviors. Stay tuned for more!

  • Agile2024: A Week of Insights and Inspiration in Dallas

    Agile2024: A Week of Insights and Inspiration in Dallas

    Last week, I had the pleasure of attending Agile2024, the main conference organized by the Agile Alliance. The event in Dallas was a vibrant gathering of thought leaders, practitioners, and enthusiasts dedicated to building on top of the Agile Manifesto. Throughout the week, I had the opportunity to attend numerous sessions, each offering unique insights and practical takeaways. Here’s a summary of the sessions I attended and the valuable lessons I learned.

    The Opening Keynote: The Art of Caring Leadership by Heather Younger

    The conference started with an inspiring keynote by Heather Younger, author of The Art of Caring Leadership. Heather’s session centered on four behaviors she explores in her book: self-leadership, active listening, empowerment, and team resilience. Her emphasis on a “focus forward” approach resonated deeply with me, particularly as I strive to maintain a solution-focused mindset in my own leadership practice.

    1. Self-Leadership: Heather highlighted the importance of leading by example and being accountable for one’s actions. She stressed that effective leaders must first master themselves before they can effectively lead others. Heather succinctly put it, “We cannot give what we cannot have,” emphasizing the need for self-care and the importance of tending to our own emotional well-being.
    2. Active Listening: Another key point was creating an environment where team members feel heard and valued. Heather shared practical strategies for fostering a listening culture. She advised against merely parroting back what was said and instead encouraged paraphrasing with both what was said and felt, to mirror and be 100% present with the speaker truly.
    3. Empowerment: Another crucial behavior discussed was empowering team members by giving them the autonomy to make decisions and take ownership of their work. Heather illustrated how empowerment leads to increased engagement and innovation within teams. The idea, she emphasized, is to help people shine and realize their full potential.
    4. Team Resilience: Lastly, she addressed the importance of building resilient teams that can adapt and thrive in the face of challenges. Heather’s insights on fostering resilience were particularly timely, given today’s work environment’s dynamic and often unpredictable nature. She emphasized the importance of a forward-focused mindset to navigate and overcome obstacles.

    Heather’s keynote set a powerful tone for the rest of the conference, reminding us all of the importance of caring leadership in driving team success and organizational growth.

    Agile Games – Energizers Session by Dennis Wagner and Veit Richter

    I had a lot of fun during the “Agile Games – Energizers Session” facilitated by Dennis Wagner and Veit Richter. One particular energizer, “the boss worker,” stood out to me as it effectively raised awareness about the superiority of expressing intent over giving orders.

    Agile Games for Leadership by Dennis Wagner and Veit Richter

    Following the energizers’ session, I stayed for a second session with Dennis Wagner and Veit Richter on Agile Games for Leadership. During this session, I tested a few games, including one I brought to the group: “tap and guess.” This game was well-received and provided a fun and interactive way to highlight the main bias that we have when communicating with others. If you’re interested, I can share more details about how “tap and guess” works and its benefits.

    Unmasking the Secrets of Agile Facilitation – Discover the Science Behind Personal Engagement by Evelien Acun-Roos

    In the second session, Evelien Acun-Roos unveiled the science behind personal engagement through her insightful presentation on the 5Ps of facilitation. She began with the Primacy-Recency effect, emphasizing what happens first and last in a session and maintaining the right rhythm and energy in the room. Evelien stressed the need to Pay attention by incorporating novelty, meaning, and emotion into facilitation practices. Another critical point was encouraging participants to Participate actively through inclusion, co-creation, and innovative approaches. She also highlighted the significance of Psychological safety, ensuring everyone feels included and has the freedom to engage or pass as they choose. Finally, Evelien underscored the Play aspect, advocating for a playful environment to achieve extraordinary results.

    Autonomy in Action: Strategies for Energized Teams and Exceptional Results by Damon Poole and Gillian Miranda Lee

    In this workshop, Damon Poole and Gillian Miranda Lee introduced us to three engaging activities to foster autonomy within teams. The first activity, owning the retrospective, involved providing teams with a choice between three activities for each step of the retrospective process, enhancing their sense of ownership and engagement. The second activity, journey map, involved creating an agile journey map from traditional to agile and identifying individual, team, and organization behaviors to pinpoint the next steps in evolving those behaviors. Lastly, the ADKAR for agile activity applied the ADKAR change model to raise awareness about problems and opportunities, fostering a desire to change. I particularly liked the idea of using dot voting on topics that team members believe are significant issues, as it effectively highlights areas for improvement.

    Agile Identity: Embracing the Chaos by John Miller

    John Miller’s session, “Agile Identity: Embracing the Chaos,” encouraged deep reflection on implementing frameworks like Scrum. He warned of the pitfalls of “dark scrum,” where practices are followed mechanically without understanding Agile values and principles. Instead, John advocated for “bright scrum,” where these values and principles are fully embodied. The discussions at the different tables were particularly energizing, as participants shared insights and strategies for truly living Agile in their teams and organizations.

    Keynote Panel: Reimagining Agile by Sanjiv Augustine, Jim Highsmith, Jon Kern, Heidi Musser, and Ellen Grove

    The keynote panel on “Reimagining Agile,” featuring Sanjiv Augustine, Jim Highsmith, Jon Kern, Heidi Musser, and Ellen Grove, kicked off the third day, which was dedicated to an open space format. I particularly appreciated Jon Kern’s emphasis on the need for exemplars to showcase the success of Agile practices. His call to action for providing beacons of hope resonated with me, and I committed myself to contributing at least one such example to inspire others in their Agile journeys.

    Open Space Sessions

    During the Open Space, I participated in four enlightening sessions. One session with Jon Kern focused on discussing the exemplars of successful Agile practices mentioned in the keynote panel.

    Another session addressed the agile training needed for executives and managers. I shared a few strategies based on the agile awareness programs we deliver at Pearlside. These include connecting with what people already know about Agile, leveraging the 1-2-4-All technique for inclusive dialogue, starting with the Agile Manifesto, exploring the values and principles using the matrix of principles, and helping teams assess and improve their agility.

    In another session I proposed, we discussed the emerging leadership navigator, and all people were interested in taking the assessment!

    Additionally, I participated in a session on how to get people to accept change when they crave stability. I introduced the polarity map approach, which helps people see the value in balancing stability and change rather than viewing them as opposing forces. By identifying early warning signs of over-relying on one side, we can aim to achieve the benefits of both.

    It was a fantastic day filled with rich discussions and actionable insights.

    Productize Your Organization! by Jeff Patton

    Jeff Patton’s session on “Productize Your Organization!” was a highlight for me. Jeff’s product thinking approach, coupled with the practical exercise using his canvas, sparked deep discussions at our table. His assertion that “every company is a product company” resonated strongly with me. Jeff emphasized that organizations should move beyond the confines of projects and focus on understanding and addressing the needs and impacts on users and choosers. This perspective is crucial for fostering a more user-centric and impact-driven approach within organizations.

    Emotions at Work: Enabling Spaces for High-Performance People by Celeste Benavides

    Celeste Benavides’ session on “Emotions at Work: Enabling Spaces for High-Performance People” was deeply impactful. The talk addressed the importance of acknowledging and managing emotions in the workplace. Celeste warned that ignoring emotions leads to underperforming teams and can even drive leaders to seek new opportunities. The interactive sections of the talk were particularly engaging, prompting us to reflect on how we bring (or fail to bring) our whole selves into our interactions.

    Discover the Emerging Leadership Navigator by Alexis Monville

    I had the pleasure of delivering a talk on “Discover the Emerging Leadership Navigator.” The session received great feedback and sparked considerable interest in the approach, which energized me. The positive response reinforced my commitment to continue working on my upcoming book, further developing and refining emerging leadership concepts. Sharing my insights and connecting with others who are passionate about leadership was a highlight of the conference for me.

    Closing Keynote: From Cautious to Courageous: A Live Rollerskating Journey by Melissa Boggs

    The closing keynote, “From Cautious to Courageous: A Live Rollerskating Journey” by Melissa Boggs, was an inspiring and dynamic conclusion to the conference. Melissa’s journey from cautious to courageous on roller skates was a powerful metaphor for personal and professional growth. She illustrated how fear often keeps us safe and how stepping into new spaces with curiosity and courage can lead to significant progress. Melissa encouraged us to see the possibilities and take small, experimental steps forward. Her question about the kind of community we could build to become role-changers was particularly thought-provoking and left a lasting impression on me.

    Overall, Agile2024 was a fantastic conference! I am grateful to have met many amazing people and participated in such enriching and inspiring sessions. The insights and connections made will undoubtedly influence my work moving forward.

  • Career Conversations Are Not a Retention Trick — They’re a Leadership Responsibility

    Career Conversations Are Not a Retention Trick — They’re a Leadership Responsibility

    Many managers hesitate to talk about careers with their team members.

    Two objections come up again and again:

    • “People don’t really know what they want. Why would I open that conversation?”
    • “If I help them think about their long-term future, won’t I just help them leave?”

    In this episode of Le Podcast on Emerging Leadership, I discussed these questions with Russ Laraway — former leader at Google and Twitter, co-founder and former COO of Candor Inc., and author of When They Win, You Win.

    What emerged from our conversation is both simple and counterintuitive:
    career conversations, when done seriously, increase commitment rather than reduce it.


    People usually know more than we think

    One of the most persistent myths in management is that people have no idea what they want to become.

    Russ’s experience — working with thousands of leaders and teams — shows the opposite. Most people do have a sense of direction. What they often lack is a safe space and a skilled manager to help articulate it.

    When managers invest time and attention in these conversations, people don’t suddenly become disloyal. They become clearer.


    Retention at all costs is a losing strategy

    Russ shared a strong conviction, shaped by both experience and data:
    retention at all costs puts the company first — not the human.

    He tells stories of sitting down with team members to evaluate external offers together. Sometimes the right decision is to stay. Sometimes it is to leave. What matters is that the decision is aligned with the person’s long-term vision.

    Ironically, managers who behave this way tend to retain people longer. Trust grows when people feel their manager is genuinely invested in their future — not just their output.


    Career conversations reduce the “grass is greener” effect

    Many people leave not because their current role is bad, but because they believe the next one will magically be better.

    Career conversations change that dynamic.

    By working with a long-term vision and a concrete career action plan, managers can often make small but meaningful adjustments in the current role: exposure to budgeting, collaboration with another function, or responsibilities aligned with future aspirations.

    Suddenly, the present becomes a place to grow — not something to escape.


    Leadership behaviors can be measured — and that matters

    One of the most powerful aspects of Russ’s work comes from his time at Candor Inc. and later at Qualtrics.

    There, leadership was treated as an independent variable:
    direction, coaching, and career behaviors were measured directly by employees and correlated with engagement and business outcomes.

    This rigor matters because many organizations suffer from leadership overload:
    too many frameworks, too little coherence, and no clear connection between selection, training, assessment, and coaching.

    When managers don’t know what truly matters, they guess. And guessing is expensive.


    Investing in people is demanding — and that’s why it works

    Real career conversations take time.
    They require effort, listening, and humility.

    They force managers to see people not as resources to retain, but as humans to support.

    And that is precisely why they work.

    When people feel genuinely invested in, they take more responsibility, stay engaged longer, and deliver more meaningful impact — not because they are controlled, but because they are trusted.

    That, ultimately, is what Emerging Leadership looks like in practice.

    References:

    Russ’s insights provide a fresh perspective on leadership, emphasizing the importance of measurable behaviors, meaningful career conversations, and prioritization. Tune in to the full episode of Le Podcast on Emerging Leadership to explore these concepts and learn how to implement them in your organization.

    Here is the transcript:

    Alexis: Welcome to Le Podcast on Emerging Leadership. I’m your host, Alexis Monville. In today’s episode, we are honored to have Russ Laraway, an accomplished leader with 30 years of operational experience. Russ has held significant roles, from being a company commander in the Marine Corps to managing positions at Google and Twitter. He co-founded Candor, Inc. with best-selling author Kim Scott, and has served as Chief People Officer at Qualtrics. Russ is also the author of the insightful book “When They Win, You Win: Being a Great Manager Is Simpler Than You Think.”

    Welcome to “Le Podcast on Emerging Leadership,” Russ! How do you typically introduce yourself to someone you’ve just met?

    Russ: Yeah, that’s a wild question. I just say my name at this point. I don’t really say anything else. And I, and I have some reasons for that. I [00:01:00] think, Alexis, what you’ll gather from me over the next several minutes together is I’m a very intentional human being in, Ways that I think are perhaps uncommon and might seem a little bit nutty to people.

    This is one such example I realized that what’s common Is that we often introduce ourselves and we sort of lead with our really our professional identity our title and company or whatever And that’s not even probably in my top five identities. I’m a dad, I’m a husband, I’m a friend.

    And so I started to just become really conscious about that. Additionally, I kind of have to say that as my career has transpired, I’ve had some really, really good jobs that are, I don’t know, I think you might say objectively one might say.

    They’re kind of impressive. Then I get into this problem where, gosh, I don’t want to sound like I’m bragging ever either. And so I really started to sort of subordinate [00:02:00] the professional identity in introing myself and just kind of wait. And if someone wants to talk about what do you do, I’m happy to, happy to talk about that.

    Alexis: And what happens when you do that?

    Russ: We have this house here in Utah in the United States. And it’s a very unusual house. It’s really neat, but it’s unusual. And when we show people the house and take them through, because. You know, some of the features and because of the size, it’s very common.

    People, people think they’re being slick, but this has happened now like a hundred times, somebody will say, so what do you do? Because they’re looking at this house and they’re like, how the heck, you know, that kind of thing. And it’s funny, the first couple of times I realized, well, I finally, it took me a minute.

    I’m a little slow sometimes to realize what people were, they were trying to triangulate. Like some version of how can you afford this? Right. So then that makes me even want to sort of subordinate the professional identity even more. And then I just generally will say I’ve been, I’ve been an executive in tech. So that’s kind of what I’ll say. Because that [00:03:00] is really, I know what they’re really asking and that helps explain, you know, this house. So I don’t know. It’s a really wild question. I’ve been very intentional about it over the last several years where. I’ll just let someone else, if they want to peel that onion and they want to find out what I’ve really done and ask questions out of genuine curiosity, I’ll go there with them.

    But generally I just say my name and let other people kind of take the lead and see where our introductions take us. I don’t know. What do you, what do you think about that?

    Alexis: That really resonates with me. For years, I introduced myself to anybody, regardless of the context, by stating what I was doing for a living. Sometimes, people were impressed, and sometimes not, but it always led the conversation to professional stuff.

    While I would have loved to discuss something else. I am an avid book reader of fiction and non-fiction. I would love to hear about that or anything you are interested in, and necessarily what you are doing for a living.

    In short, it really resonates with me!

    Russ: Well, glad to hear that. It’s also it’s been frankly a mouthful the past few years. You know, I’m, I go from chief people officer at Qualtrics to chief people officer at Goodwater. By the way, wrote a book sort of in between those two. So I’m an author. Then switched over to operating partner at Goodwater.

    So that’s kind of two titles in a little over two years and author and chief people officer of culture. And by the way, now I’m, I’m actually with some buddies. I’m writing a screenplay.

    Alexis: Oh 

    Russ: and, and so, you know, you just, it’s just tough to, it’s tough to fit it all, you know, say, say my name and see where it goes.

     I’m way more proud of, my sons and my marriage and my,, that I’m a good friend to people, I’m just way more proud of those things than anything else. So yeah, cool. Fun question. Great question. I’ve done a bunch of podcasts, I think, as you know, and that is the first time I’ve been asked that question and that’s really fun.

    Alexis: I love it! My friend Michael Doyle, who is a great coach and a great communicator and also the co-author of my second book, wrote that question for me. I love that you liked it!
    Your book, “When They Win, You Win,” proposes that being a great manager is simpler than one might think. Can you tell us more?

    Russ: Yeah. Why I wrote the book, maybe I’ll start with why I wrote the book. It’s a really simple idea. I believe people deserve to be led well. You know, stop, you know, sort of that’s that idea itself is, can be unpacked for months, but the problem that I have seen and measured, by the way, is that actually people are not being led well and this is kind of hard to believe, in fact, measurably managers have not improved in 30 years.

    This is like, you start to combine stuff from Gallup and some other like Qualtrics, other employee experience [00:06:00] companies, and you start to see a pattern that managers are really flailing in the world big time. I have a lot of rigor behind these statements, mathematical rigor behind these statements, as you know, in the intro and part one of the book. And then I thought, well, gee, how can that be? How can we be standing here? Employee engagement is a measurement that’s been around for 30 years. It comes from the field of IO psychology. And it is explained, by the tune of like 70 percent of employee engagement is explained by manager quality.

    And employee engagement itself predicts business results. And so you’ve got this really interesting relationship, manager quality, employee engagement, business results, and engagement has not improved in 30 years. Managers have not improved in 30 years. How can that be when I can’t walk 10 steps outside without tripping over another book or podcast or article in HBR about how to be a better leader?

    Like, How, how, could it possibly [00:07:00] be the case managers aren’t getting better when there’s a pile of content that’s taller than Mount Everest out there trying to help them be better. So I dug in on, on that and I had this realization. I learned this in my time at Radical Candor this probably my biggest insight I have from my time with Kim there, which I think might be on our agenda to talk about a little later.

    So I can come back to that, but I had this realization that One of the reasons managers are failing is because all this content out there, including their training programs in their company, there’s too much stuff. That’s number number one problem is too much. We’re asking managers to pay attention to too many things.

    It does not hang together, so there’s not a common system. Let’s say that is pervasive. There’s a lot of like, well, what worked for me, the problem with that is the person you’re learning from isn’t necessarily conscious of exactly why that worked. What was their business context? What was the team context?

    What were their executive relationships? Like, what are the things that [00:08:00] contributed to you having success with that leadership advice you’re giving? By the way, worse, the manager who’s receiving the advice is extremely biased in what they choose to opt into or not. They grab for the things that sound familiar, the things there may be even already good at things that sound perhaps easier.

    So there’s too much stuff. It doesn’t hang together. And worst of all, none of it is held to measurable account, like whatever leadership, you know, prescription you’re offering. What’s your proof that it’s worth paying attention to? There isn’t any out there. So I said, you know, there’s no wonder people aren’t being led well, systematically or the managers have not improved.

    And by the way, like you’ve heard the cliches, people don’t leave bad jobs. They leave bad managers. Like I’m not exactly saying the most controversial idea in the planet. I just was, I was just like, how is it possible? They haven’t actually improved. That seems impossible. Well, that’s how too much stuff doesn’t hang together.

    held a measurable account. And so I realized, Oh, you know, the world does not need another person’s opinion about what it [00:09:00] takes to be a great manager. What we need is to measure, measure a set of leadership behaviors, small in number, ideally, that measurably and predictably lead to more engaged employees and better business outcome.

    And so my really talented team of quants at Qualtrics and I set about running that. Experiment, you know, we were lucky Qualtrics has an employee experience platform that, you know, it was very natural for us to measure a number of these aspects of the employee experience. And all it took was some cleverness from our people analytics team to mix these things together in a giant stats package with things like ratings and quota attainment and contract renewal rate and in engineering, like lines of code checked in, like any measurement you could find that would indicate business performance.

    We could measure the frequency with which managers were showing these behaviors. And of course we could measure employee engagement. And by the way, several other aspects of the employee experience. And so we were able to tease out about a dozen or so. Leadership behaviors that predicted [00:10:00] engaged employees and better business outcomes.

    That’s extraordinary. That’s never existed before. That’s the book I wrote and why I wrote it in the books organized by the way, direction, coaching, career. Those are the three buckets, let’s say. Of behaviors direction is a set of behaviors, set of behaviors, their coaching, set of behaviors, career, set of behaviors.

    So that’s kind of why I wrote it. That’s the impact we’re hoping to have is let’s demystify this. Let’s take out a bunch of the bias. And let’s focus on a really small number of behaviors that actually work that matter. And, and by the way, in almost any context that these behaviors work.

    Alexis: So you are telling us that the leadership behaviors you organized into the three buckets, direction, coaching, and career, are direct predictors of employee engagement and business performance. I have to admit, I’m a big fan of your career conversation approach, and I’ve used it more than a hundred times in coaching or mentoring session.

    Could you explain this concept to our audience and share why it’s so [00:11:00] effective in managing and developing teams? 

    Russ: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So part four of the book career this is something very original in the book. A model that I’ve invented over, got to be coming up on 20 years now, invented and refined. It’s called career conversations. And it’s three distinct conversations.

    The first conversation is called the life story conversation, which is really about having people tell you their life story and then really taking the time to understand their pivots. Even at young ages, by the way, the pivots they’ve made and why they’ve made them. And through that process you learn sort of what people deeply value in their work.

    It’s fascinating. And it’s important, I think, to do it just that way, rather than just to ask them what they value, because I think people accidentally frequently lie. They don’t mean to but they’re not actually generally conscious of what they value. But when you start, when you have them tell you their life story, And you help them probe the pivots that they’ve made.

    You learn actually sort of a show don’t tell [00:12:00] version of learning what they value. So that’s the first conversation. And that really helps me understand things that in the, that are subsequent in the subsequent two conversations, things we should do, things we shouldn’t do, because we know what this person values.

    The second conversation, which is the most important by far, is helping to get to what I call a career vision statement, which is basically like, what’s your dream job? What do you want to be when you grow up? And a lot of people, by the way, have skepticism that this is feasible for our young Gen Z employees or whatever, you know, like, People our age will say things like, I don’t even know what I want to be when I grow up.

    I’m just going to tell you like, and I give a really strong prescription in the book for how to do this well, because it’s, it’s not, most people are kind of come into the room convinced they’re not sure. But you can facilitate them into the vision, and I teach how to do that in the book. I won’t get into it here.

    It takes a little, a minute. And I’ll say for myself, I’ve done, I’ve done this a thousand times [00:13:00] and I have successfully facilitated every single one of those people into a, into a working vision statement. The reason this is so important is because it puts someone’s development into the context of what they want to be.

    And by the way, those vision statements will generally be, and should be outside the four walls of this company. And this is one of the first powerful ideas is I have just acknowledged that you are a human being with a life well beyond. What we’re doing here in this office right now. And I’m interested in that.

    And I think it’s my job to participate in your growth and development toward that. But perhaps more important is, you know, you know, question I’ve been asked Alexis a million times is should I get an MBA?

    I’m like, man, I don’t know. What do you want to be? What do you, like, if you want to be the CFO at Disney as your, one of your, your career visions, then yeah, you better get one and you better get it from like three places, you know, that kind of thing.

    But if you want to be a you know, if you ultimately want to write a screenplay. No, don’t do not go get an MBA. It won’t help you at all. The people who finance movies, I think [00:14:00] oftentimes wouldn’t recognize. A good financial discipline if it fell out of the sky and hit him on the head. And then last is the last conversation is really about the career action plan, which is now that we know what you want to be when you grow up conversation to now that we know what you deeply value, let’s put together a short term plan that helps you take tangible steps toward the longterm vision right now.

    Let’s take some steps right now. You want CFO at Disney. Clearly I cannot make that happen, but I can help you think about ways to that you can take small steps in that direction and that creation plans it’s four parts. There’s four discrete aspects will follow we’ll set up action items who will do what by when that’s how you know, you have a, a good action item.

    And so and now this employee and I are both actively working on their long term career vision, what they want to be when they grow up together while they’re reporting to me, it doesn’t mean. We don’t focus on the day to day work that has to get done. It doesn’t mean any of that. And, you know, it’s funny, one of the most [00:15:00] common push, I get to two sources of pushback most often.

    One is people don’t know what they want to be when they grow up. So why would I bother with this? That’s. I’m telling you, they do. You just have to make it safe and skillfully facilitate that conversation. And the second is, wait a minute. Why on this company’s dime, should I be helping a person think about their longterm?

    Am I not just lose, am I just greasing the skids for them to leave? And what’s fascinating about this model, and I give retentive. People tend to stay with a manager who invests in them like this for longer for a number of reasons. One is they’re saying, well, this is unusual. I’ve never had a manager invest in me this way.

    I think I’ll hang out here for a bit. The other is like a lot of people leave a current job because they have this grass is greener problem. They think the next job is better. And what you learn. Is that you can potentially make small [00:16:00] adjustments to your job right now in your career action plan. The first thing we do is evaluate what can we change in your current role, given your longterm vision.

    So for example, if you want to be the CFO at Disney, I can have you run my team’s budget. Now that might seem a little silly or trite. But, you work with FP& A now, and you see, you start to see from the inside, what does the CFO’s organization look like, right? It’s, it’s actually powerful. So now you’re not necessarily as inclined to say the grass is greener because we make small adjustments that are in my, as your manager, within my power to make.

    We can make small changes to your current role. We can chart a next job for you. That’s maybe on my team or maybe on another team inside this company that makes sense, given your long term vision. Right. We bring to bear and people in our networks that can help inform and influence these decisions you need to make.

    That’s a part of the career action plan. So it’s robust and it really helps a person feel invested in, in a very unique way. And [00:17:00] so counter intuitively. Whereas it feels like you’re greasing the skids for somebody to go sliding out the door. The reality is they tend to stay longer when the manager goes through the full career action plan model with them.

     At the end of the day, I think a person that you’re working with on this feels invested in uniquely and in a way that contemplates their humanity. Not just their sort of economic value to this company. And that’s, that just doesn’t happen. I don’t care. You know, it’s hard to pull off actually, as a manager, it’s hard to find those moments to invest in a person like that.

    Given the core nature of our job is manager directs employee, Employer, you know, so I think that’s why it’s so powerful. I think that’s maybe, I mean, you could tell me you’re the one who says you love it. You could tell me why you think it’s powerful, but I, but I feel like maybe those are a couple of the reasons.

    Would you, would you add or subtract anything

    Alexis: That’s exactly what I believe. When we truly invest in people, and I’m truly that, like you say, I’m truly investing in you, we [00:18:00] take the time to make it work. And it’s a lot of effort. It sounds very simple. Yeah, there are three big conversations, but please don’t believe you will be done in half an hour.

    It’s, it’s not true. That requires a lot more work, a little bit from you and a lot from the other person, by the way. That’s very powerful. And I had people targeted by recruiters outside of the companies. And sometimes you have people who are leaving or taking a new job in another company and you realize that, yeah, you basically were not there at the right time.

    And when they are back in your company two years later, okay that means they should have stayed maybe, or probably they were not taken care of at that moment. That was a big mistake. And what I realized is once you have those conversations, they listen to the recruiter or even not listen to the recruiter, because those arguments don’t resonate with them because they have their development plan.

    They have their action plan. Those things don’t fit their action plan. They don’t care. [00:19:00] They have a plan. They are working towards it. And that’s very cool.

    Russ: That’s right. Yeah. A woman who worked for me at Twitter named Anne I had gone through the career conversations model with her and I knew what her vision was. And she had come to me one day with an external offer. This is exactly what you’re describing. And we sat down and we evaluated the offer together.

    And we’ve reached the conclusion together that this wasn’t it. This isn’t the right move for you. I appreciate that. Maybe there’s a couple of things that might be missing here for you now. I get it. We’ll change. What would I change? We can, there’s things we can’t change. She was an all star, you know, she was going places and she has gone places, she’s the CEO now of Gretchen Rubin media.

    Like she’s, she’s an all star. I’ve heard of Gretchen Rubin. And what’s, what’s interesting about that is given her. Long term vision , we were able to say objectively wrong step. Nine months later, she came in with another offer. And I was like, yo, you got to take this one.

    And I, you know, so retention at [00:20:00] all costs is a bad practice. It’s not, it doesn’t put the human first. It puts the company first. And people feel that I had, I had a manager one time who. She talked me into staying at Google. I had a pretty good offer to leave my manager. She talked me into staying. I highly regarded this manager and the company that I was going to join ended up getting bought by Google would have been not only a huge payday.

    I would ended up back at Google in a, in a good role, you know, and After it happened, I actually, when the announcement happened that we were buying this company, I happened to be in the air traveling to Asia Pacific, and I landed and I saw this news and it was, I dunno, it was a little bit of a gut punch, you know?

    Because yeah, I was still trying to make a, a career here and I care about my financial outcomes like anybody. And when I got back to the states, she, our one-on-one, all she did was apologize because, she just tried to keep me on her team. She wasn’t really thinking about what was best for me.

    I forgave [00:21:00] her, you know, in fact, that person’s Kim Scott, actually, who wrote Radical Candor, like, I forgave her so much, I’ve worked with her again, and this is what makes her amazing, she probably lost a lot of sleep that weekend, waiting for me to come in Monday, to put that one on one on the first calendar, first thing in the morning, so she could apologize, so I know what it feels like, when someone engages in retention at all costs and it feels bad, like don’t do it, you know, and it put our relationship in jeopardy for a minute.

     I don’t have a better relationship maybe anywhere in my work life. And she’s a friend, but you know, retention, all costs of losing strategy. So with, with Ann, we hung on to her because things she was thinking about, like you said, it was the wrong thing when the right thing came, I was like, Hey, Like Sting says, you know, if you love someone, set them free.

    And so we did, we set her free and she’s had this, she became a CMO. She became a COO after that. And now she’s a CEO she’s so good. And she’s earned all of this. But we were able to help make sure she took the right next step given her vision.

    Alexis: I love the All Stars story, but I definitely love the story of [00:22:00] retention at All Costs. I was about to interrupt you to mention that the manager was very good at realizing that they made a mistake and needed to apologize. And then you mentioned Kim Scott, the author of Radical Candor.

    I love that book and I did an episode about the four quadrants of Radical Candor. Co founding Candor Inc with Kim Scott must have been a remarkable experience. What key insights did you gain from that venture? 

    Russ: Yeah, I don’t mean to make everything about my book, but by a, by a mile, the theory for my book came from my time at Candor Inc. So let me explain that. So Kim and I co founded the company and, and basically I took on all of our go to market activities. We had a ton of demand for just what can you do for us with radical candor?

    You know, like we had so much demand. The job was really about keeping out things that would waste our time. On the phone, I talked to like, I’m not even, this is not an exaggeration, a thousand [00:23:00] companies. 

    As the chief operating officer, and, you know, basically that meant I managed our marketing person, Elise, who was amazing. And I handled all of the, all of the market based calls. I was selling our stuff, you know, workshops or talks and stuff like that. And so I would get on the phone and I would always start with a simple discovery question.

    It was either or both, what problem are you trying to solve? And, or how do you think we can be helpful? And honestly, I’m just trying to get off the phone as quickly as possible if we can’t be helpful. If they want something we don’t do, you know? And so what I heard though, from a thousand companies was.

    An alarmingly similar answer that I’ll summarize almost nobody said these exact words, but everybody said this exact idea, which was, we have an engagement problem related to low manager skill. Now, one group did say that specifically. And I [00:24:00] said, that’s the headline that everyone’s been telling me anyway.

    So, so, and what they were looking for from us was some radical candor coaching stuff. That’s what they wanted, you know, cause radical candor. You know, direction, coaching, career, coaching is really, Radical Candor is really about improvement coaching more than anything else, right? Chapter 8, I think, of my book. And so, when people would say to me, we have an engagement problem related to low manager skill, I asked, To further clarify, if we were a fit for them, I asked, what’s the nature of your manager’s skill gap?

    Alexis: Hmm.

    Russ: And so they, they said a lot of things, but you know, you’ve seen a word cloud before.

    So imagine a word cloud of all the words they said to me, but three jumped out in the center of the page, three words. Direction, coaching and career. And so that those are part two, part three and part four of my book. [00:25:00] Now that wasn’t sufficient. That was not real research. It was, you know, it was a back of the napkin research, but I took that research and I created a theory that we took, I took to Qualtrics and we measured.

    Whether those were the right groupings or whether those were the most pervasive groupings. And I think that’s important because one of the questions I get asked a lot about this leadership prescription is, is that just for tech? Well, no, our customers at radical candor came from every industry, including by the way, government, including education, including finance, consulting, you name it.

    I mean, I talked to every kind of company on the planet, big, small, it didn’t matter. And they all had the same exact problem with their managers. That’s a, that’s shocking to me. I mean, I couldn’t believe it. Like it didn’t, it’s almost when I tell the story, I bet listeners are like, boy, that sounds lucky.

    But we, so then anyway, we took that theory and we tested it, tested it over four years, rigorously, measurably. And that’s how we just, we learned that these direction coaching and [00:26:00] career, they break down into about a dozen or so behaviors that when managers regularly practice them as measured. By their employees saying that they regularly demonstrate those behaviors, we saw that then employees became more engaged and delivered better business outcomes.

    And so by a mile. The most important thing I learned is, Oh, everybody still has the same problems. Nobody who’s out there running their jib about or, you know, yapping about what leaders should be doing. No one’s listened to one customer on the planet because otherwise it’s the answer is so obvious.

    And then I was able to kind of take that and study that very rigorously over four years. And learn that, Oh my gosh, these behaviors strongly, the marketplace was correct, these behaviors do strongly correlate with happier employees and better business results.

    Alexis: Yeah, that’s very impressive. Reading about your experience, measuring precisely the impact of leadership behaviors in the book convinced me [00:27:00] to try the approach you outlined. By the way, thank you for the tools that are available online. That’s very convenient, very cool, and thank you for that. I should put a link to those.

    I can see that And there were some things that I was doing and others that I was absolutely not doing. For example, I was not doing the live conversation. I was trying to get people to tell me about their values, but I was not doing that by listening to their stories. 

    And that suddenly changed everything because, first, I needed to pay a lot of attention and do a lot of work to really try to extract that.

    And, uh, and the first time it was very difficult. I learned to discover people that I, thought I knew, and I did not. 

    Russ: I knew almost nothing about what they really care about. I thought, and I think the super human, I’m like a human leader. I, I try to know my people. I ask about what they do on weekends. I ask about their families. I ask about their health. You know, I, I do these activities that [00:28:00] we’ve been.

    Incorrectly taught help us know someone and we don’t know him in a way that really is helps us to help, to help them grow in a, in a relevant way. It’s the big insight. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. You know, by the way, I just, I’ll say if I did, if I had to offer one criticism of the book, one thing I noticed is you’re probably an anomaly.

    In that you’ve clearly read the book quite carefully. That’s just not common. And I’m not just for my book. I could tell I’d go do a radical candor talk back in the day. This is one of the most popular business books in the last decade. Right. And I would ask people who read the book and, you know, every hand would go up and then, then I’d get to Q and a, and based on the Q and a, I could tell.

    That I’d been lied to because if you’d really read the book carefully, you wouldn’t have been asking the question you just asked me. Right. Same’s true of my book. And so the criticism that I have is I have noticed [00:29:00] that with a lot of people listening, not maybe carefully, let’s say you’re listening on two X speed and you’re, that’s during your commute or two X speed while you’re gardening, you know, let’s just say like that. What has happened is a lot of people have missed part one that talks about the rigor of the model. You know, it’s important to me to give the why, and part one gives the why. Most people that have the books, the book, it’s 4. 0, you know, it’s highly rated book. I’m not, but like people tend to be very appreciative of the how and what of parts two, three, and four, and they skip, they skip the the why.

    And what’s, what’s extraordinary about that is that’s what, that’s what I actually invented that in career conversations in part four is fully, but the rest of it is a little bit kind of just cobbled together behaviors that help to bring the wider life and the actual invention. Is leadership as an independent variable statistically in a regression model, like the math of this leadership’s an independent [00:30:00] variable with engagement.

    And business results as dependent variables. Nobody has ever done that before. Like it’s not that I’d like even want credit or something for it. It’s just like the reason you should pay attention to this book is because it’s the only book that has bothered to try to measure how leadership behaviors produce what we want.

    Happier employees that stick around when they should and better business outcomes, which is all point. We’re all in the job to do, you know? So anyway, just a little, little bit on that, that I’ve noticed now a couple of years out regularly gets missed. Even, even among very intellectual types who I, you know, I thought, boy, boy, the intellectual types I know from Silicon Valley are going to love this.

    You know, a lot of people miss it. A lot of people miss it because they’re not really reading it carefully. So I wish I wrote it a little better. To make that idea more obvious or make it more accessible for people with contemplating that people don’t read books very carefully. Very often. Does that make [00:31:00] sense?

    Alexis: Yeah, it is very funny. If you ask people what they need, they need results. And for a lot of them, they understood that people engagement, employee engagement is linked to results. I usually describe this with impact and satisfaction. You cannot have one without the other, at least sustainably. And they have some common sense or street wisdom about how the manager role is important and related to employee engagement.

    But when asked what they are doing about that, they tell you about incentives, without any proof that it’s working. 

    Russ: Always. Yeah. Yeah. And then on top of that, you know, what leadership approach we follow suffers badly from like chief executive officer flavor of the month. I went to this thing with other CEOs and they were talking about, you know, I don’t know, situational leadership. And so now that’s what we’re doing.

    And what ends up happening is then the people who do leadership development in some company. Now have [00:32:00] to pay attention. This is a new thing they teach their managers with, with, by the way, and I don’t mean, I’m not picking on situational leadership. It’s very popular for a reason, but I also can say it’s not been held to any rigor now we’re telling managers to focus on this thing and then the CMO, let’s say, or the CFO goes to some conference and they come back with some new leadership idea, framework, and they say to the, And then there’s the chief human research and nevermind what the leadership development person learned in their PhD and everybody wants that to get into the leadership model.

    None of it has any rigor. It’s too much stuff. It doesn’t hang together and none of it has held a measurable count. Now our managers are confused about what they’re supposed to do. And, and, and on and on it goes over and over. And you mentioned like proof. The most important thing that that we did at Qualtrics to learn that this, to prove this was the model we used, I call STAC, select, teach, assess, [00:33:00] coach, all with that leadership standard.

    The same leadership standard and the assessment was the key, a measurement for every manager in the company from their employees on whether they’re demonstrating these behaviors, not 360, not from the boss, the boss gets plenty of opportunity to assess that manager in other ways, you know, and so now managers even who thought they were demonstrating certain behaviors, their employees were saying, we didn’t see it, you know, and it had confidentiality, so they didn’t know who said what, you know, we had a very Because of who we were, people, the managers were inclined to look at these measurements and pay attention to them.

    And so suddenly we could show a manager every quarter how their team was experiencing their leadership. We didn’t use a punitively. That’s the fastest way to get employees to stop telling the truth. You fire someone. We used it to coach, assess, coach, assess, coach, assess. Every quarter, a manager got an assessment from their employees [00:34:00] anonymously that was by the way.

    Organized and prioritized around the things that were correlating very strongly with employee engagement on their team. So it was custom what they should focus on. And we gave them measurements of why they should focus on, you know, nobody’s doing that. And that’s why managers. They, they pick and choose what they’re going to focus on based on, I don’t know what way the wind’s blowing half the time.

    There’s, you know, and, and the, what companies choose to teach, select, teach, assess, cause they’re teaching too many things and they’re confusing their managers. What should you focus on is not a question a manager can answer. Managers are, what I think I should focus on is they don’t know because they don’t have any sort of connection between the teaching and the assessment.

    And there’s no connection between the selection for the job. The teaching, the assessment and the coaching, the coaching should, they should all be done around a coherent, concise leadership standard that we know works measurably predictably leads to more engagement and [00:35:00] better business outcomes.

    Alexis: Yeah, I love it. I have one last question that I like to ask. Looking back at your career, what is the one piece of advice you would give to your younger self?

    Russ: say, Hey, you had a good instinct. It was well executed. Do that again. And here’s what it was. I was in the U S Marines and I loved it. I really loved it. There’s a number of things in that culture that I miss. I’ve never seen again in corporate America, probably do another whole episode on that someday, but I loved it.

    But I got out after four years because I realized that the tempo. Of the Marine Corps, the deployment schedule, for example, was not conducive to me being the kind of husband and father I would one day want to be. I wasn’t married yet. I had a couple other small complaints about the Marines too, but this was probably biggest for me.

    We deployed a number of times. And I saw how it wreaked havoc on my, you [00:36:00] know, my Marines and other officers and things like that. So that’s the first time. Then when I was graduating business school, so, you know, let’s, I think I’m 33, 20 years ago. I was interviewing with like McKinsey and Bain and, you know, big, big consulting houses. And I came home one night and my wife said, and I had two sons already. I eventually had a third. I came home one night and my wife said, you know, She goes with like sarcastic air quotes. She goes, you know, now that you’re getting this fancy degree, does this mean you’re going to get a job where we’ll never see you anymore?

    Alexis: Hmm

    Russ: You know? And I, and so we sat down and talked that through and I made a promise and the promise was that I would never allow my career to get to a point where I was no longer being a good dad or a good husband and further agreed that she and the kids were the ones who got to evaluate that, not me, it was, you know, they’re the ones who are receiving.

    My husband ship [00:37:00] receiving my fatherhood. It’s very similar to the assessment of the manager. I don’t really care what the manager’s manager thinks about how that manager’s leading. I care what the employees think people are fighting to attract, develop and retain my opinion of how good of a father I am or how good, you know, I got to look myself in the mirror, but I really want to know what my wife thinks about that and what my kids think.

    Right. So we, we sort of stacked hands and said, Never let, never let the career get in the way of being a good dad. Good husband. What’s interesting about that, by the way, is I, as a result, I became a really good prioritizer. And, and I, you’ve heard, you know, I know you’ve read the book. I say the book prioritization is an exercise in subtraction, not addition, but it’s, it’s like, it’s like one of the most misused words in business.

    I think only strategic is more misused than, than prioritization. People think it means a task list. It doesn’t. And so what I became very, very good at. Is subtracting work. It’s, it’s way easier to say than do by the way. And and [00:38:00] so when I subtracted work, that meant I tended to have usually a better work life balance, but you know, like I want people sometimes hear that and they think, oh, don’t work hard, you know, I won an award at Google for being a great manager.

    You, the way you win that is one, you have to be. Not a dick, you know, so your employees are the ones who recommend you. And so if you’re a dick, you’ll never get recommended. And then you get chosen by the CEO’s team and they don’t pick people who don’t have like a reputation or track record of getting meaningful things done.

    So I’m, I’m by far most proud of that award for that reason. So I say that just cause sometimes when I say I became good at managing my time, I became good at prioritization. I became good at subtracting work. Sometimes people hear the wrong thing. Sometimes when people hear work life balance, mine tended to be pretty good sometimes people hear doesn’t work hard.

    And that’s just wrong. That’s a bad conclusion to reach. So anyway, what I would go back to my younger self and say is, this instinct that you had, [00:39:00] that you weren’t sure about, that by the way shows up again, In another 10 years in your early thirties when you’re graduating business school go with that What when you’re at the end of your career, which by the way, I pretty much am now.

    I just i’m retired I do some speaking. I do some coaching when you’re at the end of the career All that will matter is you’re looking at your three sons you know, you’re looking at, you look at your wife, are we still happily married? Yes, we are. You’re looking at your three sons, how they doing? Do you know about them?

    Do you know about their lives? Are you involved in their lives? And that I can’t, I can’t think of one other thing that gets anywhere near as important in my career as those things. So I would go back and encourage myself to follow that instinct that I, that I had. And, and maybe especially graduating Wharton wasn’t totally sure about it was, it was the right, it was the right instinct.

    Alexis: I love it. And, , and thank you for sharing that. I hope it will inspire a lot of people to think and reflect on what they are currently doing. [00:40:00] Thank you very much for joining the podcast. I hope we will have another opportunity to discuss all the other things that we were not able to discuss today. 

    Russ: Anytime you want, anytime you want. Thank you so much for having me. 

  • Agile Conversations: Why Trust Comes Before Why

    Agile Conversations: Why Trust Comes Before Why

    Some episodes give you a framework.
    This one gives you a practice.

    I sat down with Jeffrey Fredrick, VP of Engineering at Ion Analytics and co-author of Agile Conversations, to explore what happens in the moments that matter: when tension rises, stakes feel high, and the conversation goes off the rails.

    What struck me is that Jeffrey does not talk about communication as “soft skills”. He talks about it as deliberate practice.

    The moment that changed everything: “You’re good at advocacy, but where is your inquiry?”

    Jeffrey traces the origin of his journey to a conversation at CitCon. Someone he had just met told him something precise and unsettling: he sounded skilled at making the case for his ideas, but not very curious about others’ reasoning.

    That single observation pointed him toward Chris Argyris’ models:

    • Unilateral control: I’m right, the answer is obvious, and my job is to make my idea win
    • Mutual learning: I share my reasoning and I’m genuinely curious about yours, so we can learn our way to a better decision

    The key move is deceptively simple: balance advocacy and inquiry.

    The Four Rs: a method to practice, not just understand

    Jeffrey introduces a simple cycle that turns good intentions into actual behavior:

    1. Record the conversation (in a two-column format)
    2. Reflect using a model (Argyris, NVC, LEAP, etc.)
    3. Revise by writing an improved version
    4. Role play to make the new behavior real, out loud

    What matters is not the elegance of the model. It’s the repetition.

    Jeffrey’s point is sharp: these ideas make so much sense that we assume we already do them. Recording exposes the gap between what we value and what we actually do under pressure.

    Why we can’t recall what we said

    One of the most useful insights is about memory.

    Jeffrey explains that we don’t remember the exact words we used because we’re not hearing our own “tapping”. We’re hearing the “music in our head”. In other words, our internal story is richer than the actual signals we send.

    That gap is exactly why deliberate practice matters. If you can’t accurately perceive your behavior, you can’t reliably improve it.

    Trust first, fear second, then why

    Jeffrey challenges a popular leadership reflex: starting with purpose.

    He argues the sequence often needs to be:

    1. Build trust
    2. Surface fear
    3. Then talk about why and direction

    Why? Because without trust, “why” becomes a debate weapon. And without acknowledging fear, teams act out of loss aversion while pretending they’re being rational.

    I especially liked one framing: if you hide your concerns, you’re not being neutral. You’re withholding relevant information. That changes the emotional meaning of vulnerability. It becomes part of doing the work well.

    Triggers, tells, twitches: spotting your patterns

    Over time, practicing the Four Rs helps you identify repeat patterns in yourself:

    • what situations trigger you
    • what your “tells” look like
    • what your body does (“twitches”) when you’re about to slip into control mode

    Then you can do the adult thing: plan your moves in advance, instead of improvising under stress.

    Can this work at scale?

    Jeffrey has seen it spread in organizations in two ways:

    • explicitly, through shared practice and vocabulary
    • implicitly, by embedding mutual learning into rituals like incident reviews and postmortems

    His reminder is both hopeful and pragmatic: it spreads one person at a time. You don’t need everyone trained for the conversation to improve. But when more people practice together, everything accelerates.

    The simplest takeaway

    If I had to keep one idea from this episode, it would be this:

    When stakes rise, stop trying to “win”.
    Return to mutual learning: be transparent about your reasoning and curious about others’.

    It’s not a slogan. It’s a practice.

    Transcript:

    Alexis: [00:00:00] Welcome to Le Podcast on Emerging Leadership. I’m your host, Alexis Monville. Today, we are diving into the world of agile leadership with a special guest, Jeffrey Fredrick. Jeffrey is the Vice President of Engineering at Ion Analytics and the co author of the book Agile Conversations. With a wealth of experience in the tech industry, Jeffrey has a unique perspective on how agile can transform teams and drive innovation.

    Welcome Welcome to the podcast, Jeffrey. How do you typically introduce yourself to someone you just met? 

    Jeffrey: Well, I had lots of practice that last couple weekends being at a couple of conferences. So I got to refine my pitch of it. The usual way that I put it is I work four days a week as a software executive, currently VP of engineering and then one day a week as an executive coach, both to individuals and to executive teams.

    Alexis: Wow, that’s a perfect pitch. I love it. And I [00:01:00] like the balance between the four days a week doing the job for real and one day a week helping others do it. That reminds me something. You are also the, the co-author of the book Agile Conversations. Can you tell us about the pivotal moment that led you to the book?

    Jeffrey: Oh, well, in a sense, I think the pivotal moment came for me actually at a, at a different conference, at CitCon, the conference that I organized and have organized for the past 19 years. I was there and I was talking to someone who I just met, a gentleman named Benjamin Mitchell, and we were talking and he said to me, something very strange.

    I didn’t understand what he meant at first. He said well, you seem very, very familiar. Practice very skilled making the case. For what you’re saying, you know, he says you’re, you’re very good at advocacy, but I’m not hearing much inquiry. And I was very confused by what he said. He clearly meant something very particular but I didn’t know what it [00:02:00] was, and that really was my very, very first taste of the model from Chris Argyris what he would call model one and model two where it’s easily understood as the unilateral control model and.

    The mutual learning model and the idea. One of the one of the ideas in it is that you should be balancing advocacy inquiry. There’s you should be both making the case for what you believe and sharing the reasons why you believe it. And you should also be curious about the other person’s beliefs and why they believe what they do.

    it was, so it was actually that conversation that ended up setting me down the path that led to the book. The gap between that conversation and the book was about nine years. So it wasn’t a quick path, but it was actually fairly direct.

    Alexis: I love the story about it and I can understand why in a way, in our current timeframe or mindset [00:03:00] it could seem long, but at the same time When I read the book I was thinking, okay, it sounds very simple at first. And you’re talking about the four R’s and I will ask you to explain that a little bit, but if you want to practice it, suddenly you’ll realize that you will need a lot of practice, but can you give us a taste of what the four R’s are?

    Jeffrey: Sure. The four Rs actually came about from trying to teach other this model and w what happened is we, we, I started learning Chris Argyris material. I started practicing it myself and I was very fortunate to be in a study group with aforementioned Benjamin Mitchell, Douglas Squirrel, my co author.

    And we would have long weekly sessions where we would study it. And then I tried to bring the same material into the workplace and have other people learn it as well. We weren’t though going to be able to have multi hour [00:04:00] conversations. So what I needed was a format that would allow us to get the same, a lot of the same value of practice, but in a shorter timeframe.

    And so what the four R’s are is a, process for studying really any kind of conversational technique that nice. And I make this point because there are lots of different models of what good communication looks like. There’s the Chris Argyris model that we just, we’re discussing the mutual learning model, but there’s also models like nonviolent communication.

    Xavier Armador’s leap model. Many different types of things that people might want to check to see if they’re doing and the four Rs in a sense is kind of separate from all of those. It’s a process really of studying conversations and it’s the four steps involved are first you record Your conversation, you do this in a, in a two column format and the two column part is important and you write it down and this is important.

    We can come back to why. [00:05:00] So there’s the record. And then once you have it written down, then you reflect. This is where you bring whatever model you’re using to bear. You evaluate your conversation that you’ve recorded according to the model you have in mind. And then having reflected. On it and seeing some things that you might improve.

    You then revise, you, you try creating an alternate version of the conversation. And this, these two steps are really where the practice is, you know, up until now, you’ve been kind of evaluating what you’ve done, but it’s really in the work of trying to improve as the element of deliberate practice. And once you’ve written down a version of the dialogue that you.

    Prefer then you can go to the, the final step of practice, which is to role play which is to actually say things out loud that you have written down and and having done this of course, there’s kind of a loop here. You’re, you might not like your first revision. You might not like it, what it sounds like when you role play.

    And that’s the point is that you will then revise or repeat rather, you’ll go back and re [00:06:00] revise and re reflect and come up with better versions. And even In the role play, you might change sides with the person you’re practicing with, and that’s role reversal. 

    Alexis: It’s very powerful. And just the recording phase is very interesting. I usually take. notes when I have a conversation with people but I realized when I was reading the book that I usually take notes about what the other person says, not so much about what I say. And when I recall the conversation, usually I don’t really remember what I said.

    There’s a few things that I note, but it,, that’s basically things that I want to remember. I said that to that person. I give that advice or I asked for a particular thing, but all the rest I am, I forget about it and I am able to remember it. And, and I was stunned by that. That’s, I, I, I just can’t is it something you observed? 

    Jeffrey: Absolutely. it’s [00:07:00] not surprising that we don’t. Remember what we said exactly because in practice, actually, we aren’t aware of what we say in a conversation this is kind of why people have difficulty improving their conversational skills without this kind of deliberate practice and writing things down.

    Now, when I say we don’t know what we see in the conversation, this may sound , hyperbolic, but it’s, but it’s actually true that one of the, one of my favorite experiments about this is they asked a number of people to tap out a tune, one that was very familiar, that everyone would know.

    And so for example, the song, happy birthday to you. Right? So they would tap on the table, you know, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, you know, and then, and then they would ask the people, what are the odds that the person listening to it will be able to guess what it was that you were tapping out. Right.

    And, and, and and when they ask people, and I’ve done this many times, I’ve done this. And when I, if I’m doing [00:08:00] in person, I will tap it out and, you know, ask people, you know, what do you think? How often people they guess? And people give a whole range. They, you know, some people say 40%. Other people are much more.

    Cautious, maybe 20 percent or even 10%, but actually it’s much smaller than that. Even it was something like less than 5 percent of the people could guess what was being tapped. So there’s huge discrepancy between what people guess, what people will be able to guess and the actual number of people can guess.

    Now, why is that? And it comes down to this. The person doing the tapping isn’t hearing the tapping. They’re hearing the song playing in their head. They’re hearing the music in their head. And that’s what we are like in our conversations. We aren’t hearing the words we say. We’re hearing the music in our head.

     So there’s like, actually two completely different conversations happening. There’s what we’re hearing in our head, and the person we’re talking to, and all they hear is the tapping. And that’s the [00:09:00] that’s that gap explains a lot of our conversational differences and what the four Rs do in the recording format by having one column where you write down your thoughts and feelings and one column where you write down the actual dialogue.

    Well, it makes that difference clear. So that’s that idea that we can’t remember is when you have this mental model is less surprising because what remember is the music, you know, that in our head, not the tapping that we’re making. Right.

    Alexis: Mm, I, love the analogy and I’m I’m eager to try the experiment. . I’m pretty sure that all listeners Start With Why. And still, I tend to agree with you that it’s not really where to start.

    Why are you saying that?

    Jeffrey: it’s worth perhaps saying that , in the book when we lay out conversations that we believe , that team should be having it really comes down to what we value more than why, why is still important, but we put it third. , we, what we say is before you start getting into why.

    What you’re doing, [00:10:00] the first place, the place to start is to start with trust. Because this is the, what’s going to be, what is the foundation for how you are able to improve going forward? You know, if you, if you don’t have trust, then . The future conversations are not going to bear any fruit.

     That’s our place to start is that is doing things that build trust. Now that the idea of how you build trust generically I’ve only come across one way to do it, which is in some sense to be vulnerable. The idea of being vulnerable means, in this case, it might mean, you know, sharing are really comes out of sharing our thoughts and feelings and being interested in the thoughts and feelings of other people.

    And this way of, of being vulnerable is a very common thread that I’ve seen through all the different types of discussions of trust. Now, this is not the kind of trust or being vulnerable that you might have with a [00:11:00] traditional leadership game of, you know, maybe doing trust falls where you’ve leaned back and someone tries to catch you.

    This is something that’s a little bit more high stakes. This is sort of like being willing to, to share differences of opinion and where You’re not sure when it’s going to agree but the idea is , that there’s not another approach to really building the relationships with your colleagues, other than to be able to be honest about Your thoughts and feelings.

    I could say more about this. It’s not that you you need to be blunt. I can tell people when when they’re doing these kind of exercises, you might have the inner thought that says, That’s the stupidest idea I ever heard. And building trust doesn’t mean therefore saying, Wow, that was the stupidest idea ever heard.

    If you if you say something, like, Well, I look, I have some concerns, great, you have full marks. But if you just say, Oh, Okay, then clearly you’re withholding relevant information. And so, that’s the low [00:12:00] trust building approach. And very often people are nervous about how people react.

    So they’re nervous about sharing their differences and getting that point where you can say, I have some concerns. And we talk a bit more about how to do that in that chapter. So that’s why we don’t start with why is because we think building trust is essential. And the next thing we get into.

    So our second. Conversation we think is important is having the fear conversation. That is, is a sense an extension of the idea , of building trust, because if we’re not sharing our fears, then we’re not really being vulnerable, we’re not sharing important elements to it, but fear is such a large element and actually can be a way to.

    For people to better understand us when they understand a lot of our motivations are coming about from what things that we’re concerned about and what we’re concerned about is not going to be the same as other people. That idea that our, our inner fears and thoughts are not going to be different from other people’s actually a really important idea.

     One of the big [00:13:00] barriers to good conversations is something called naive realism. Which is a cognitive bias that works like this. It says, I see the world as it is. And so do you we’re both, and we’re both looking at the same objective reality. And therefore we have the same information.

    And and of course I’m, what I’m seeing is correct. You know, the right thing. is obvious by just examining reality. So if I can see this thing, you can see it also. And so if you don’t agree with me, well, then you must be confused. In which case, my job is to explain to you how you’re confused or that you’re doing something sort of disingenuous or malicious.

    You can see the truth. You’re just choosing not to share it. And in that world, we don’t need to talk about our fears because they’re obvious. And so if we, if we leave that, that mistaken world of naive realism and realism that we’re seeing different worlds, then the need to actually explain our fears become more apparent.

    And we, and we start [00:14:00] with fears because people are, tend to have a negativity bias. People tend to have loss aversion, negative emotions and negative feelings have a stronger influence on us than positive ones. And therefore. We think addressing those hidden concerns, surfacing them is important first step before you start getting to the more positive side, which is why and you know what what we hope to address what we have to achieve going forward.

    So. why is still very important we just don’t start there.

    Alexis: Yeah. And I, and I love it. And I, I really love the way you are framing it about withholding information. I feel it’s very powerful because If you ask me to be vulnerable, I, there’s some discomfort with that. And now if you’re telling me, Oh, but if you want to make progress in that relationship, if you want to make progress in that conversation, you cannot keep [00:15:00] information to yourself.

    You have to open up a little bit to help the other person. See what you think, see what you, Or see what you fear. I, believe it’s very, very powerful to frame it this way.

    Jeffrey: yes. I’m glad that resonates with you. And one thing I’ll say is it resonates resonates with a lot of people. One of the dangers that our book is actually trying to address is that when you read these types of ideas, they all make sense. The challenge is that they make so much sense to people that people think that they not only do they agree with it, but they believe they actually are already doing it. And if we go back to the four Rs, the purpose of the four Rs, the purpose of writing things down is to allow us to observe the fact that we don’t. Behave the way that we espouse the way that we value we think that because we believe this to be true We believe it to be the best way to communicate that therefore that must be how we [00:16:00] communicate But when we look at the evidence unless we’ve done some very deliberate practice What we’ll find is that’s not the way we we actually behave by default.

    We we are More strategic we fall into what? Chris Argerys is called, you know, model one or the unilateral control model. And we ended up withholding this information, not by deliberate strategy, but because it’s in a sense of the way we’ve been trained and the way that feels natural.

    Alexis: Yeah, and I love the idea of identifying the triggers. Because they are derailing completely the conversation. It’s very interesting to reflect on that and say, okay, okay, let’s, let’s pause for a second on that one. let’s avoid reaction the, the hundred percent hundred percent reaction mode and

    Jeffrey: Yeah,

    Alexis: spend a little bit more time on that

    Jeffrey: that’s right. That’s the triggers that we talk about triggers, tells and twitches, which are three types of patterns we can learn about ourselves through [00:17:00] doing multiple conversation analysis, right? So we use that four Rs for conversation analysis. If we do it multiple times, we’ll tend to spot these patterns and realizing the way we often behave.

    And then the idea is that having discovered that we come up with preplanned strategies. Things that we’ve decided in advance that agree with our values rather than trying to improvise in the moment under pressure, in which case we’re likely to go fall back to those default model one strategies.

    Alexis: So, you are VP of engineering at ION Analytics. 

    Jeffrey: Yes.

    Alexis: ,are you really able to use that in your day-to-Day? Life and how your teams maybe are using it if they are. 

    Jeffrey: Would say this is in this scenario, not all of the teams are I use it all the time. I if nothing else, I, I do a workshop every month at a meetup where I have a meetup, the agile conversations meetup, and that we do a it’s open, it’s free to [00:18:00] everyone. And so once a month I will do the four Rs practice along with everyone else.

    So minimally I actually do. this practice minimal once a month. Now I actually did something like this. Four or five times in the past week leading different workshops at the conference and quote unquote, summer camp between them at these conferences. So I’ve I’m you’re you’re catching me in a moment where I where I look especially virtuous in practice. So, but I will definitely use this techniques of practice, even though I’ve been doing it for 10 years. It’s still very valuable to keep practicing. Oh, 10 years. It’s much more now. Isn’t it? Time flies more more like 12 or 13 years. Yeah. But it’s not I’m not in it. The thing about these skills that we talked about here, these conversations is there are things that you can initiate.

    These are practices you can do on your own without needing to get everyone’s buy in that these, these are things that you can do. These ideas of being more transparent of being more curious , [00:19:00] these are things that work whether or not other people are, have practiced them as well. And I think part of it is because goes back to what I said before, these ideas make a lot of sense to people and Generally, what we’re saying here is take those, those ideas that we would all agree are the best way to make decisions and then actually behave that way.

    But, but the important part here is we’re not, we’re not trying to do something wild and crazy. And I often illustrate this in my. Group sessions when I’m doing a workshop, I’ll ask people and I’ll say something like if, if I was going to put you in charge of coming up with a process, we’re going to make a decision and I’ll choose something trivial.

    Let’s say you’re going to choose what ice cream we ordered tonight for the group. How would you suggest we go about making the decision? And it’s generally some variation of, well, I would ask everyone. For their idea what they would suggest. Cool. And then I asked you. So you’d be curious. Huh.

    Now, would you also share your own [00:20:00] ideas? I feel like, well, yes. Okay. So you’d be transparent because everyone agrees that we’re going to make a decision together. We want all the information. So we should be curious about what everyone else knows and what they believe. And we should be transparent about what we know and what we believe. And we all agree that that’s the best way to make a decision, but it’s not the way people act in practice. I should be, I should clarify this. It’s not the way people act in practice. If they think something important is at stake, if they, if they think this, the question is trivial and they’re, they’re not concerned about it.

    Or, and this is why, for example, people make great facilitators for other people’s problems because they don’t care. And when they don’t care, they. Naturally act in a way that’s very productive, which is they say, well, let’s get all the information on the table. Look, I don’t really know about this dispute.

    Let’s hear from both sides. Let’s bring in all the, all the facts. And once we have all the facts, then we can decide. That’s what we, we know in really deeply [00:21:00] believe this is the best way to make decisions, but. If we think there’s something important at stake, suddenly we don’t behave that way. And the reason is because we come up with our own ideas about what we think is best.

    And once we have our own idea of what’s best, now, suddenly we want it to win. We’re no longer trying to make the best decision. We’re trying to have the best. Our decision be the decision that approach of how do I get my ideas to win? It just leads to a completely different set of behaviors.

    And I don’t think this is a conscious choice people are making. It’s just a function of how our cognition works. It kind of goes back to that fallacy of like the naive realism, like look, the, the right answer is obvious. Therefore, since everyone has the same information, there’s no need to be curious and there’s no need to be transparent.

    It’s just a question of being logical. And so I will try to reason people, I will bludgeon them with reason until my way is victorious. And, [00:22:00] and that going along with this is the idea that this is the right thing to do. I should be trying to get my idea to win because my idea is best. And and this is an important decision.

    This is consequential. If something else were to happen other than my best idea, well, that would be a loss for all of us. And it’s that fear of loss that I think generates these kinds of behaviors in us. It’s not that people are ill motivated, but the, the way our cognition works gets us caught in this trap, and this is why.

    It’s really valuable to have people go and practice this other way of being and practice this other approach of saying, you know, rather than trying to focus on having our idea win, how can we focus on mutual learning? How can I focus on learning what other people believe and sharing what I believe? Now at the end, maybe we won’t agree.

    On the best thing to do, but at least in our disagreement, we’ll have all available information. That’s why I think this [00:23:00] works without having other people be trained in it, because if I come to you and I say, look, we have this decision to make, but I really want to understand, Alexis, what is it that you believe and can you tell me what you saw and how you got there?

    You’re happy to tell me you’re not going to say like, well, look, I, I think you should, my idea should win, but I’m not going to tell you why I got there. No, no. You’re quite happy to like share your chain of reasoning because you’ll be persuasive. And if having done that, I say, well, look, let me share.

    What I’ve seen and how I got there, then people are generally are happy to listen after they’ve had their chance to talk, right? So this kind of reciprocation. So when we’ve done the practice and we can behave this way, we make the whole conversation better for everyone.

    Because we’re not trying to mislead people where we’re actually taking them back to what they believe would be the right way to work and and the way that they would behave. If it was something they were designing in advance. It’s only something we fall out [00:24:00] of doing in the moment, in the heat of the moment.

    Alexis: Yeah, that’s very interesting. So do you believe that drive way the teams are organized on, on the way the team works because you and probably others start to behave that way, engaging people and their interactions. Excellent.

    Jeffrey: What, well, I mean the, the, the conversation I’m part of, I can bring these skills to better, and I’d also would say the more people who’ve done the practice, the better I’m. At ion via a series or a short series of acquisitions when I first was learning this, I was CTO and head of product at a much smaller company called Tim group and at Tim group.

    We actually did bring this these, this material in, and we did have everyone in the company practice, and it was very effective to have everyone learn these skills because you start having the kind of jargon and it really did [00:25:00] accelerate things when you could be much more transparent about what your thoughts were in the sense of the metathoughts of saying, well, let’s make sure that we’re using mutual learning here.

    You know, there was keywords people would apply and not only that, but people would do practice sessions together. We would have a weekly and then fort later fortnightly practice session where people would bring their conversations for group discussion. It was very valuable to have people to talk through their differences.

    It’d be really interesting when two people would bring their own conversational analysis of the same conversation. What we found was that people consistently realize that if they’d been more transparent, more curious earlier in their conversations, the things would have gone better. they often were bringing cases where, they had these long, Debates with each other before eventually settling on something.

    So in one sense, they didn’t really need the skills. They would work things out eventually, but having the skills, having done the practice, what would have been maybe three [00:26:00] hours of discussion became 10 minutes. So, and people felt better. So there was definite wins for having done this as a group. It’s not that there isn’t value, but it’s not.

    It’s not required to develop it. But it is an accelerant if you have more people on board doing the practice.

    Alexis: Excellent. What, what is the size of the, of ion analytics and ion group in general?

    Jeffrey: I, Ion group is tens of thousands of people. Ion analytics, is a a couple thousand within engineering we’re talking 300 to 250, 300 ish. So that’s a, a much larger whereas at Tim Group, when I started there was 120 people. We’re now doing this much larger organization than when I was, was at Tim.

    Alexis: Yeah, that gives a sense that we are not talking about 10 people or even 100. It’s way larger than that. And you can still see the impact of having better [00:27:00] conversations in the, in the organization. Is it something that can spread to , the other part of the group, or is it only in your area?

    Jeffrey: I think it spreads individual by individual. So even if I think back at to Tim group, it it started very much within engineering. It was it was people within engineering who were practicing these things and then, and then product and then people in data science and then until it’s kind of all of the sort of technology side, and then it spread over to the executive team.

    Actually, and then the executive team then wanted to instill it in the rest of the company and then took it to sales. So it it, it, it did spread bit by bit through Tim group. It did so because you had people who were explicitly championing it within the context of. Analytics, it’s something that I focus more on using than teaching.

     I have done some classes, [00:28:00] but we don’t have the same at the moment, same kind of weekly study group. It’s there for people who like it. And I do think there is an element to which it spreads on the other hand, even though there’s no training , if I’m with a group of people and. We practice the idea of being transparent and curious, then they begin developing those patterns and it comes out in some of even some of the ritualized elements.

    So, for example, we’re focused a lot right now on post mortems or root cause analysis. And bringing in the idea of, look we’re going to focus here on first creating a timeline. We want to head of shared facts that we’re discussing before we then go and try to make meaning from those facts. And we’re going to move stepwise and have multiple people involved to sharing their perspective.

    We’re kind of embedding in the process, this mutual learning model. And so in that sense, there’s an element which it spreads through experience rather than [00:29:00] through, you know a shared mental model of what’s happening. I do think that does spread in part because if we go back to, we said before about the need to build trust when we have built trust with other people and when we have psychological safety, then we are more likely to behave in the way that we believe is correct.

    We’re more likely to share, be vulnerable and share those thoughts and differences. And we’re more likely. Having built trust and respect, we’re more likely to then be curious about what other people say. So there’s an element which the practice leads people into behaving in this fashion.

    Alexis: I love it. Thank you very much, Jeffrey. Maybe one last question. What would be one advice you would give to your younger self?

    Jeffrey: Well,, the advice I’d give to my younger self is to start this earlier. I’m now 54. I came to this in my forties and it would have made a massive difference to me if I had started this in my [00:30:00] twenties. I could have learned a lot more, a lot faster. I could have been much more.

    Persuasive I could have been much of much more help to the groups. I was dealing with if I had learned these Skills earlier. I definitely was a Kind of person who would try to persuade other people about why my position was right and so I think that since Benjamin Mitchell was correct in his analysis when he said I was well practice at advocacy, that was true.

    I had a couple decades of serious practice going back to actually the high school. So maybe three decades I had been on the speech and debate team. And so I had learned a lot in practice, a lot of persuasion. I think I would have benefited from a lot more curiosity. That’s my younger self that would be.

    You know, become more balanced, learn the value of listening first and to understand that listening is not a weakness. It’s a strength. I think there’s that element of if I, if I’m [00:31:00] curious, then it makes it that I’m somehow losing ground. And that’s just simply not true. I’m, I’m adding value to everyone by being curious.

    And then I’ll have my opportunity to be transparent. That’s, that’s advice I could have used a couple decades before I learned it. Thank

    Alexis: I love it, Jeffrey. Thank you very much for having joined me on the podcast.

    Jeffrey: Thank you for having me. 

  • The Perception of Too Many Meetings

    The Perception of Too Many Meetings

    The Problem: Meeting Overload

    In many organizations, there is a growing perception that employees are burdened with too many meetings. This perception is not unfounded, as research indicates that executives now spend nearly 23 hours a week in meetings, a significant increase from the 1960s when it was less than 10 hours[2]. This increase in meeting time can lead to several negative outcomes, including decreased productivity, employee dissatisfaction, and burnout.

    Causes of Excessive Meetings

    Several factors contribute to the proliferation of meetings:

    1. Lack of Trust: In some workplaces, a lack of trust among team members leads to frequent check-ins and updates, resulting in numerous meetings [3].
    2. Over-Reliance on Meetings for Communication: Some organizations default to meetings as the primary mode of communication, even when other methods might be more efficient [3].
    3. Micromanagement: Inexperienced entrepreneurs or managers may micromanage their teams, leading to unnecessary meetings [3].
    4. Lack of Clarity: Lack of Clarity: When goals, objectives, roles and expectations are not clearly defined and communicated, meetings are often used to repeatedly clarify and align on tasks, leading to an overload.

    Impact and Satisfaction

    With Michael, we picked the subtitle of our book, I am a Software Engineer and I am in Charge, to reflect what we believed were the most important things to achieve. The subtitle is The book that helps increase your impact and satisfaction at work. It appears clearly that excessive meetings led to the exact opposite.

    Excessive meetings lead to employee dissatisfaction and burnout, as they often feel their time is wasted and their work is neglected. This not only reduces job satisfaction but also disengages employees from their roles.

    Moreover, poorly timed or managed meetings can severely hinder productivity, preventing employees from completing their tasks efficiently.

    Toxic One-on-One Vicious Circle

    When a leader distributes context and information solely through one-on-one meetings, it can create a toxic cycle. These meetings often expand to include additional tasks and allow direct reports to voice complaints about their peers. In an attempt to address these issues, the leader may conduct even more one-on-one meetings, which can lead to mistrust and dysfunction within the team. This approach fosters a lack of transparency, as important information is not shared openly with the entire team, and it can create an environment where gossip and backchannel communications thrive. Ultimately, this cycle undermines team cohesion, erodes trust, and hampers overall effectiveness.

    Strategies to Reduce Meeting Overload

    I often experiment with strategies to reduce meeting overload with leaders and leadership teams.

    First, identify the categories of meetings you currently have. Reviewing your last quarter calendar, consider the following categories and feel free to add any additional categories relevant to your organization:

    • Leadership Team Meetings: Regular meetings with the team to discuss progress, issues, and team dynamics. Define the details of these meetings for clarity.
    • One-on-One Meetings: Individual meetings between managers and their direct reports for personalized feedback, coaching, and development.
    • Issue Resolution: Meetings addressing specific problems, challenges, or crises.
    • Client/Stakeholder Meetings: Meetings with customers or external stakeholders.
    • Social/Team Building: Informal meetings or activities to build team cohesion and morale.
    • Information Sharing: Meetings primarily focused on disseminating information, updates, or announcements without significant discussion or decision-making.
    • Networking/Industry Events: Meetings aimed at networking, attending industry conferences, or engaging with the broader community.

    Second, analyze your time invested in each category during the last quarter.

    Third, consider what you want instead of the current situation based on this observation.

    Fourth, determine the first step to take to achieve this future state.

    About the Future State

    Here are a few things to consider when reflecting on the future state:

    • Understand Meeting Categories: Clarify the meeting categories and assess their necessity.
    • Use Collaboration Tools and Work Asynchronously: Share documents and gather feedback using collaboration tools to reduce the need for lengthy review meetings AND Get a clear agreement on how to use those tools [5]
    • Delegate and Ensure the Right People Are in the Room: Delegating and ensuring that only essential participants attend meetings can enhance efficiency, promote better decision-making, and ensure the time spent in meetings is productive and focused.
    • Clear Agendas and Time Limits: Ensure every meeting has a clear agenda and set time limits to keep discussions on track [4].
    • Avoid Back-to-Back Meetings: Continuous meetings without breaks deprive individuals of downtime, reduce focus and attention, limit time for reflection and follow-up, contribute to overloaded schedules, diminish creativity, and lower motivation [1].

    Citations:
    [1] https://www.touchpoint.com/blog/too-many-meetings/
    [2] https://hbr.org/2017/07/stop-the-meeting-madness
    [3] https://tms-outsource.com/blog/posts/too-many-meetings/
    [4] https://hbr.org/2022/03/dear-manager-youre-holding-too-many-meetings
    [5] https://blog-alexis.monville.com/en/2016/03/09/let-us-code/

    Photo de Jon Tyson